How would health reform affect your take-home?
July 17, 2009 by Kerry IsbergPosted in: Employment law, Health care, Pay and benefits, Special Report
President Obama’s plans for healthcare reform could have some nasty tax consequences for employees.
Congress is looking for ways to raise more than $1 trillion in new tax revenues to finance health care for the uninsured. At the top of the list: several proposals that would cut employees’ take-home pay 9% to 14%, depending on their household income and tax situation. Several of the plans under consideration would require Payroll to treat as taxable income:
- health insurance premiums
- dental premiums
- vision premiums
- flexible spending account deposits, and
- health reimbursement arrangement contributions.
Right now, employees don’t pay taxes on these benefits because they’re deducted from their paychecks on a pre-tax basis.
Specifically, the proposals the Employer Council on Flexible Compensation reports are under consideration include:
- capping this proposed group health tax exclusion at $6,800 for individuals and $17,240 for group coverage in 2013
- imposing the cap on all workers with group coverage, or
- imposing the cap only on those earning more than $100,000 per year (married couples, more than $200,000) per year.
For more info
To see how the proposals might affect your own paycheck, go to www.nohealthbenefitstax.com and click on “Worksheet: How the health tax impacts your paycheck” on the right-hand side of the screen.
You’ll enter data such as income and tax status; employer’s benefit contributions; and pre- and post-tax benefit contributions. The spreadsheet will show your take-home pay (as entered) as of today, then calculate how much it could decline under each of the proposals. Another chart shows the increase in employer FICA, based on the values entered.
Tags: congress, FICA, healthcare, obama
July 20th, 2009 at 8:57 am
Not just due to the economy, families can barely make it the way it is. As the HR Manager and benefits administrator of the company I work for, we have so many families who have the health insurance as a “piece of mind”, but take more money out for that and they’re looking at either feeding the family, taking the needed medication, or gas $ to get to and from work…..this is not exactly the best plan I wouldn’t think. There has to be an alternative means…..
July 20th, 2009 at 9:24 am
I’m tired of seeing all of these negative stories regarding the revamping of our health care systems. It needs to be fixed, and now! The most likely scenerio for possibly taxing the benefit will not affect most of the people out there who work for a living, only those who earn much more than the average individual and don’t have to worry as to whether or not they can get health care. See the following excerpt from the AARP as to Myths and Facts:
Health Care Reform Myths and Facts
Facts are simple: health care costs too much, wastes too much, makes too many mistakes and returns too little value for our money. That’s why, on behalf of our 40 million members, AARP believes Washington needs to take action, so Americans can have affordable health care choices.
There are many naysayers who will stop at nothing to derail health care reform. Many will try to scare Americans with myths about legitimate proposals to lower health care costs—myths they believe will block changes to our current system.
Make no mistake: opponents of health care reform will have powerful tools at their disposal, including spending exorbitant amounts of money on television, newspaper and radio ads to spread their myths.
The following are the most popular health care reform myths, followed by the facts to debunk them.
Myth Number 1: We can’t afford to fix health care because we’re in a steep recession.
Fact: The current economic crisis is a big reason why we have to do everything we can to lower health care costs for individuals, for families, for businesses and for our entire economy.
With COBRA premiumscosting laid-off workers four to six times more than what they paid for health insurance when they were employed, we can’t afford to wait.
With families’ health premiums expected to nearly double in the next 10 years, we can’t afford to wait.
With people on Medicare spending almost 30 percent of their incomes on out-of-pocket health costs, we can’t afford to wait.
With nearly 20 percent of Medicare Part D beneficiaries delaying or not filling prescriptions because of out-of-pocket costs, we can’t afford wait.
Myth Number 2: Health reform means socialized medicine.
Fact: This is simply not true. AARP would oppose any proposal that bases our health care system exclusively on government programs because it would disrupt the thousands of people who already have health care they want to keep.
All proposals currently under serious consideration in Washington would leave employer-sponsored coverage in place and with it, broad choices for people to pick their doctors and hospitals.
AARP would fight against any health care reform proposal that would prevent doctors or hospitals from giving the best possible care to their patients.
Myth Number 3: No matter what happens, the baby boomers will bankrupt the system as they get older.
Fact: Research shows that the ever-rising cost of health care—not the size of the boomer generation—is the real threat to bankrupting the system. Health care costs continue to rise faster than overall inflation, and take up a growing share of the economy. The solution is to lower prescription drug costs and improve Medicare by eliminating wasteful spending that is driving up the cost of health care for all Americans.
Myth Number 4: Health reform won’t help people who already have insurance.
Fact: If you have insurance, you’re already paying for the uninsured, through higher premiums and out-of-pocket-costs. While computations vary, one study estimated the tab at $922 extra for family premiums, and $341 extra on individual premiums.
The primary goal of health care reform is to lower costs for everyone, and that includes people who already have insurance.
Myth Number 5: If we make people take more responsibility for cost of their care, they will be prudent consumers, and the high-cost problems will disappear.
Fact: Individuals should pay a fair share, and expensive health care services are not always needed. But it’s a myth to say that we can solve the cost problem by saddling consumers with big bills. Affordability is already a serious problem. Evidence shows that when excessive costs are shifted to individuals, they stop getting the care they need.
Delayed care often results in higher costs long term, due to emergency medical crises which could have been prevented by ongoing, monitored care. Consumer responsibility is important, but it’s just one part of the solution.
Myth Number 6: Health care reform will force us to pay more for care that already costs too much.
Fact: The primary goal of health care reform is to lower the cost of care for everyone. We can do that by lowering prescription drug prices by making generic versions of more drugs available, allowing importation, and for people on Medicare, closing the “doughnut hole” and permitting the Medicare program to negotiate drug prices. We can also crack down on wasteful spending by promoting the use of health information technology that will help eliminate costly medical errors and reform how we pay doctors and hospitals to reward quality care.
Myth Number 7: Health care reform is code for a “raid on Medicare.”
Fact: AARP will fight with the strength of our 40 million members against any legislative proposals that unfairly harm people on Medicare. However, we must lower the cost of health care by finding ways to save Medicare money that won’t undermine care for beneficiaries.
We can start by cracking down on wasteful spending in health care, including the waste and fraud in Medicare that is driving up the cost of health care. For example, we need to cut back on overpayments to insurance companies who insure Medicare beneficiaries at a cost of 14 percent more per patient. By changing the way we pay these plans, we can reward those that provide good patient care and reduce payments to those that don’t. These actions will help put Medicare on more stable footing so that the program can continue to provide current and future beneficiaries with affordable, quality care.
We also need to address the soaring costs of brand name drugs that drive up the costs for Medicare. We need to take on drug companies who are preventing less costly generic drugs from coming to market and who are fighting the importation of less costly drugs from abroad. We need to tell Congress to close the doughnut hole that’s costing people in Medicare with high drug costs, and push to get less costly generic biologic drugs — that treat cancer and other serious illnesses and that can now cost up to $10,000 per month — on pharmacy shelves.
July 20th, 2009 at 9:28 am
We all need to be emailing, writing & calling our representatives. We cannot allow this to pass. Like Amy said, there has to be a better alternative. There are lots of websites that make it very easy to let your representatives know how you feel. My favorite is downsizedc.org.
July 20th, 2009 at 9:34 am
I think that the author of this article is right-leaning. Check the name of the website he refers too. http://www.nohealthbenefitstax.com As Billie points out, these people are using scare tactics to delay or prevent health care reform.
July 20th, 2009 at 9:35 am
We cannot sit by and let the current administration pass the proposed health care reform. Health care does need to be addressed; but not as proposed. EVERYONE will suffer if the proposed programs are inflicted on us. We must inform our employees about contacting their representatives and encourage them to oppose the Obama healthcare reform.
July 20th, 2009 at 9:36 am
As an HR Manager and Benefits Director the taxes that are currently proposed in the House plan and the Democratic Senate bill would be devistating to our “working class” employee’s. No one would agree more than I that there needs to be reform to our current system. However, the current bills as written (yes I have read each one that is being posted by the House and Senate I am not going to pundant websites for my data) will harm employee’s who are making only 28k per year with the additional taxes they would have to pay to “keep the insurance they already have”. This issue is not small, it took time to get this point and will take time to fix. As you are reading through these issues notice that the Congress and Senate represatives will not have the same plan that they are proposing for the bulk of the Country. That stood out to me as I was going through the War and Peace volumes of data this weekend.
July 20th, 2009 at 9:50 am
Layla~ any good sites to obtain the great info you posted?? I find so many conflicting stories, but would like hard core data! Thanks~
July 20th, 2009 at 9:51 am
Billie: I never heard any of those myths. I will tell you though, that I don’t want the government deciding what treament I have or whether I even get treatment. Depending upon just “who” is in charge will dictate the care you obtain.
You obviously have not been paying attention. In Europe and Canada, people are dying because the government just cannot keep up or afford to continue on. Many elderly are being refused treatment for catastrophic disease and cancer BECAUSE of their ages.
If you continue to tax the rich, the rich will as always find a way out of paying by leaving the country, or moving their business overseas. This will eventually cause a drop down to the middle class paying for health care. This country will soon fall into the same living conditions as Cuba. The rich already pay the top tier of taxes. Keep punishing those who provide jobs, and soon there will be no jobs.
Not too mention, have you actually read the BILL they are trying to ramm through congress? No, of course you haven’t. None of our congressmen have either. This is dangerous. And what happend to “transparency?” – I don’t call that transparency at all.
In one part of the bill, it says that if you do not already have health insurance when the bill passes, then yow will never be able to have “private” insurance of your choice. Those that do will eventually lose their private insurance because of competition from the government. This is just plain communism. Pure and Simple.
Punishing people for doing well, by taking their money and giving to others is not democracy. It’s theivery.
July 20th, 2009 at 9:58 am
Hi Amy, I obtain my information from the U.S. Goverment Printing Office. This is department that lists all bills that are actionable within the House. You can reach the site at http://www.gpo.gov. You want H.R. 3200- this is the HealthCare reform bill. This is also a massive file- PDF version is 1800 KB. It is worth the read.
July 20th, 2009 at 10:11 am
Sounds like Billie is using copy/paste to put in the Obama administration’s (or AARP’s) talking points on health care–either way, the plan is too expensive and will definitely put a damper on many taxpayers. There has to be a better way to cover the “uninsured” and leave the rest of America alone.
July 20th, 2009 at 10:12 am
Another thing not being considered is that those of us who have insurance are already helping to pay for those who don’t have insurance and need to use the hospital and emergency room services. I’m not against people without coverage receiving services; I want them to get the treatment they need, but don’t want to pay for it twice (higher premiums/medical bills and a tax). I believe our system needs a major overhaul too, but adding another tax to the middle class is not the best solution. Overall, most employees’ salaries are not being increased by 9% to 14% (potential increased taxes on insurance), so those with insurance will actually end up with a pay cut. I can see this being very ugly from the payroll side of things if or when this goes into effect. With any luck a good middle ground will be established.
In addition, I don’t want the government or the insurance companies further regulating the treatment we receive. The doctors should be the ones helping us determine the best course of medical treatment, not the insurance companies. I have heard people not select a better treatment option because their insurance wouldn’t cover the treatment and the person couldn’t afford to pay for the preferred treatment out of pocket. It is horrible that people have to bankrupt themselves in order to receive medical treatment. I am thankful that I have health insurance, but all of this concerns me from both a personal and professional standpoint. Our plan renews in November, so it will be interesting to see how it affects our premiums if they get this passed by August.
Will everyone work from a fiscally responsible point of view so that we get the best solution for everyone? It will be interesting to see how all this plays out in the end.
July 20th, 2009 at 10:19 am
The COB announced on Friday that the plan as currently configured does not incorporate cost savings to enough extent. So we will be paying more without the control on health costs. BTW, cutting Medicare and Medical payments to doctors, who often get only $17 per visit, doesn’t seem like the best way to approach the issue. Somebody is getting a lot of money which doesn’t seem to be accounted for.
July 20th, 2009 at 10:22 am
I agree with Jenny and Amy.
There is not going to be enough money to fund this thing forever without serious consequences to our economy, our employers, and our personal financial well being. Health care is expensive but the system itself is not broken. We have the best healthcare system in the world (my opinion) but it is not perfect. Yes, I would like to see the cost of healthcare go down but I don’t see any other costs in our economy going down. There have to be better alternatives than to let the government steal this from the private sector.
I would like to see what the government does in 10 years with General Motors before even thinking about turning over a 5 billion dollar a year industry to what is becoming a self-serving, power hungry, money grabbing government to tell us what will be covered under their health plan.
I am also very interested in why we would even need medicare or medicaid if there is “Universal” health care. Won’t we all be lumped in together? We will ALL be paying for it. It appears that the government can’t even get a good handle on cost in the medicare system and they control it.
I have also yet to hear a story of how much greater other country’s “universal” healthcare systems are compared to our current system. Out of curiosity I wonder how many of our politicians will give up their “special” health care plan to be a part of the univeral plan they are wanting for us?
This is very sensitive for everyone on both sides of this issue. I apologize for rambling and no I do not work in the insurance sector.
July 20th, 2009 at 10:24 am
Health care system needs to be fixed and I think they should start with the Insurance Companies who charge exhorbitant premiums to the insured and with Caps on the cost of Healthcare services, not to mention the pharmaceutical companies that rake in billions of dollars because of the incredible markup on Meds. I have mixed emotions about this plan, I would like to see them leave the people alone who have health insurance and only concentrate on those who NEED it. I would like to see the Disabled, Sr. Citizens and working people who have lost their jobs and are in between finding one able to get the healthcare they need at low cost. Illegal Immigrants (from any country) and those who CHOOSE not to work or CHOOSE not to have insurance from their jobs should not be eligible. Our company carries Top Notch insurance that other companies can’t afford to offer and each plan, has NO co-insurance and very little out of pocket expense. We offer 3 different products to fit everyone’s income bracket (PPO, HSA, HMO) The PPO has the highest cost because the Co-Pay is $10, the HSA has the lowest cost because my company deposits 60% of the funds for each participant’s deductible which is pretty much unheard of. The HMO is only offered in VA and since we have locations in 3 other states and only 4 participants, we will be eliminating that plan although it will cost the company more $$. Currently, there are approximately 15 people who CHOOSE NOT to have healthcare because they think the cost of the employee share premium is too expensive when in actuality, it’s pay now or pay later and I tell them, they DON’T want to pay later because it is outrageously expensive when you don’t have coverage. What is so sad is that some have had medical events happen, then they come running to me for coverage and I can’t help them until Open Enrollment. That said, my question is, there are some who choose NOT to carry insurance with their employer so should they be eligible for affordable healthcare outside of the employer who would usually provide it?
July 20th, 2009 at 10:38 am
Get sick now! Before a nationalized system – and they tell you they will not pay for it – because you might not live. They will ration health care out. Do you really want to be told that your aging parent will not get a necessary surgery beause she is not likely to live more than another year or two!?!!
July 20th, 2009 at 10:44 am
My question is-why would anyone even WANT to set up an FSA if it is no longer pre-tax? Isn’t that pretty much the main reason employees use these accounts?
July 20th, 2009 at 11:54 am
I agree with Ed – be sick while you’re young….Once you fail their “are you young enough to receive medical attention” test, the Gov’t will only be willing to help your family by sending a death benefit – unless Social Security cuts that out. 2012 can’t get here fast enough.
July 20th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
If health care costs were controlled, the costs for employers to subsidize health coverage cold decrease, and more $ available for wages. Therefore the net effect of health-care reform could be to INCREASE your take home pay. Just pointing out the other side of the picture.
July 20th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
Billie – You may want to double-check your COBRA comment #1 above. I believe the Stimulus plan re-vamped layoffs to be eligible for COBRA coverage at a 65% discount – paid by the company that laid them off. I would assert that a COBRA premium of 35% is not likely to be four to six times their “employee” price.
July 20th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
Under the ARRA any worker that has INvoluntarily lost their job may elect COBRA and pay only 35% of the regular COBRA premium rate. The comnplany that they worked for pays the other 65% but then can recoup that loss by reducing their payroll taxes. A INvoluntarily displaced worker can only be on the subsidy for 9 months. Then they must pay the regular COBRA rate if they desire to remain on COBRA.
July 20th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
Gordon, to give you the reality of the numbers as proposed in HR-3200 (Health Care Reform Act), if you are a small business with a yearly payroll of 250k per year you are going to see a 40% increase in your business tax for this plan. That will not only negate any raise that could be given; it could make a business that employ’s say as few as 12 full time employee’s to cut one position of 28-30k per in order to afford the new tax. The taxes would start in 2010- for a plan that is not set to roll out until 2013. And instead of being able to set money aside pre-tax employee’s will now be taxed on those healthcare dollars (your flexible spending accounts or also known as Section 125) raising not only thier federal tax but their state tax income tax as well. This is a fiscal disaster for most individuals and families. I go back to a previous point- if the care as proposed is so fantastic why are the members of Congress and the Senate opting to not particpate?
July 20th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
to: fedupwithfeds:
That’s correct, but it is only available for a limited period of time, and depending on the type of plan you may have, it doesn’t necessarily encompass ALL of the costs for the plan. We have an HRA and Rx reimbursement plan due to our extremely high deductible, and those $ provided by the company don’t figure into the COBRA reduction benefit. Anyone taking COBRA has to meet the $5000 deductible before insurance benefits kick in, and then it’s only 60% until we pay another $5000 in co-insurance. Prescriptions aren’t even covered with our plan.
My husband loses his insurance the end of November. He was laid off too early to even take advantage of the subsidy. When his COBRA ends, he will not be able to even get another insurance plan due to his disabilities. I will most likely have to put him on my insurance plan, after meeting his initial $2500 deductible on his current plan, and then meet the add’l $5000 deductible on my plan. Doesn’t do much good, does it?
Please don’t tell me we don’t need some changes in health coverage in this country. The insurance co’s have bled us dry along with the pharmaceutical co’s. Why should our meds cost us so much more in the country that subsidized the research for these drugs (with our taxpayers $), and other countries can get them so much cheaper??
As for our politicians, they should have to give up what they have (which we as taxpayers pay for) and get something on their own like everyone else does. Maybe if they had to do that, maybe they would realize what needs to be done. Enough with the “let them eat cake”…..
No plan will be perfect, but there needs to be some changes and now is the time. It won’t come up again for a very long time. We don’t need to drive the ins. or pharmaceutical co’s out of business, but they need some competition. A single-payer system in conjuction with private ins. alternatives would provide that. Do you really want to continue with a system as broken as the current one is?
July 20th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
Here’s one of those Myth vs Fact blogs, this one from http://edlabor.house.gov/documents/111/pdf/publications/AAHCA-mythvfact-071409.pdf
GOP MYTH: Health reform will force businesses to cut jobs and squeeze small businesses.
FACT: All businesses will benefit from insurance market reforms and a high performing health system that will reduce costs of health care. The status quo is unsustainable for businesses. Under the House proposal, employers will continue to offer their employees health care or contribute towards coverage. Certain very small businesses would be exempt from this requirement. With tax credits and a reformed market that ensures access to affordable coverage, small business owners and their employees will have new options to purchase affordable health insurance that are not available to them now.
And this from the summary of HR-3200 http://edlabor.house.gov/documents/111/pdf/publications/AAHCA-BILLSUMMARY-071409.pdf
Assistance for small employers. Recognizing the special needs of small businesses, the smallest businesses (payroll that does not exceed $250,000) are exempt from the employer responsibility
requirement. The payroll penalty would then phase in starting at 2% for firms with annual payrolls over $250,000 rising to the full 8 percent penalty for firms with annual payrolls above $400,000. In addition, a new small business tax credit will be available for those firms who want to provide health coverage to their workers. In addition to the targeted assistance, the Exchange and market reforms provide a long-sought opportunity for small businesses to benefit from a more organized, efficient marketplace in which to purchase coverage.
Just so we’re not reading only the naysayer’s points of view.
July 20th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
The House plan also makes sure the 11 Million illegals are eligible for health care, thus strengthening the Dem’s voter base. Notice that the plan does nothing to minimize the trial lawyers gold mine of Malpractice suits. It is totally political.
July 20th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Billie, It is plain to see from your postings that you are angry- I would hope that you look at the issue as a whole but to point out something you have said regarding a single payer system. We already have a single payer system in conjection with private insurance. We have Medicare, Medicaid, TriCare, S-Chip and the Vetrans Administration- all of which are funded in whole or part (MCD is State and Federal) by the Federal gov. These programs run side by side with Private Insurance. As any of us who deal with these single payer government programs they are heavy in red-tape, they do ration care and the are less than patient sentric. You are right, there needs to be some form of reform- however, handing over the US health care system to a group of people who cannot fund or run the post office is not the logical answer. What about allowing indviduals and smaller companies to join together to puchase insurance? Creating a larger risk pool and reducing the costs? Just a thought. I hope that your day gets beter.
July 20th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
On the COBRA Subsidy, it’s something but not enough for some people. On the one side, depending on how high your Health Premiums are without the employer share, you still may not be able to afford the 35% share. It all depends on how much unemployement Insurance $$ you will have to left over after your bills are paid and if you have another source of income in your household. It’s sad that people will STILL have to make a choice of whether to choose COBRA or get their house forclosed, evicted, utilities shut off, eating Oodles of Noodles every night until they get employed elsewhere. On the other side of the coin, 35% is something but for all the hardworking americans that have lost their jobs due to no fault of their own, it’s sometimes not enough. Either you have an income where you don’t have to worry about such things if you or your Spouse/Life Mate lost a job, or no income which means that everything is handed to you from the Tax Payers courtesy of the Federal or State Gov’t, or you are a lucky middle class person who isn’t either one and always We had a few layoffs and had to go back and notify all involuntarily terminated employees back to September 1, 2008 about the Subsidy. Only 1 employee is taking advantage of the COBRA Subsidy (Medical & Dental) because his wife has a serious health condition. If it weren’t for the subsidy, I doubt they’d be able to afford over $1,000 per month with one income and unemployment being the other.
July 20th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Dick: Last I checked the illegals don’t vote much
July 20th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
I hear it’s actually anywhere from 5 to 8 million Uninsured AMERICANS, they have included illegal immigrants to inflate the numbers to pass this bill through. With all the paperwork that is required for Mediaid/care there are some doctors who do not take these insurances anymore. Now, it’s easy, we make appointments, pay our co pays or get billed if you have an HSA, same at the pharmacy. Can you imagine them meddling in your private health insurance policies taking something simple and making it extremely complicated for doctors to give care and for patients to receive it. The thought of it just stresses me out! Also, my other worry is, insurance companies and that already make money hand over fist from healthy people who don’t use them as often but still have to pay premiums will inflate their premiums even more when they have to start insuring more and more unhealthy people.
July 20th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
LAYLA: I wouldn’t be opposed to them telling us private insurance enrollees that we had to purchase our own insurance. We could pay our premiums in full but they’d have to reduce payroll taxes in for take home pay to be higher order for us to to meet the premium or give some sort of quarterly tax credit. Leaving the private health insurance side of the coin alone. Never going to happen because it’s too simple and the Govt does not do anything simple. It’s always convoluted and illusive.
July 20th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
Stacy I have to agree with you- it would be excellent if that would happen but after reading HR 3200 that is not the idea that those in DC have right now.
July 20th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
For those of you (along with myself) that feel the profits for insurance companies are a large reason for the increased cost of health care, the bill has a provision that the loss ratio must fall in line with an allowed amount or rebates will be issued to enrollees. Sounds like a step forward to me.
From the bill itself:
SEC. 116. ENSURING VALUE AND LOWER PREMIUMS.
18 (a) IN GENERAL.—A qualified health benefits plan
19 shall meet a medical loss ratio as defined by the Commis
20 sioner. For any plan year in which the qualified health
21 benefits plan does not meet such medical loss ratio, QHBP
22 offering entity shall provide in a manner specified by the
23 Commissioner for rebates to enrollees of payment suffi
24 cient to meet such loss ratio.
July 20th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
As someone stated the CBO (Congressional Budget Office), an independent group, stated that it will cost everyone more money. Also, why should we believe in the government who has bankrupted so many programs (medicare, social security, etc) and now people want them to handle their health care. I don’t want them handling anything of mine! Is Obama and the members of Congress going to be in the same healthcare system? Of course not! As long as they have theirs, they don’t care about middle America folks! I think they should just go home and do nothing!
July 20th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
LOL GORDON!
Yes, I am angry to a degree, and not just for my own family. I’m angry for the American people who still refuse to stand up for what is right and have the same benefits as the politicians we elected to office. Why should they be entitled to more than the people who are footing the bill for them?
I’m angry for those who really don’t care about anyone else’s plight as long as they have what THEY need. No one should have to go without health care, especially in this country. Illegal immigrants have no right to expect health coverage or any other benefits paid for by the American taxpayer. If you have come to this country legally, followed the rules, etc., then you should be eligible for what anyone else would be. Then you can have a say in how this country is run.
I don’t purport to have all of the answers, or necessarily the right ones, but it’s time that the citizens of this country were treated as more than just a stepping stone for those on top. We matter just as much and deserve decent health care that ALL can afford and have access to. If you can afford your own health ins plan, good for you! However, most people cannot, and those that need it the most are denied coverage unless they go in under a group, and then any pre-existing conditions are denied. Does that make sense? Something is definately wrong here.
Granted, no one wants all of the red tape, and I certainly want my doctors to make a decent living; they went to school and worked long hours to get where they are, but we have to start somewhere. Just because another country got it wrong, doesn’t mean we have to. America became apathetic because most of us were ok with the status quo. That is what got us where we are today. If people do not care what their leaders are doing, or how, enough to stand up and make them accountable, they are giving those in power carte blanch to do whatever is in their own best interests. And that’s just what they have done, and some continue to do. Enough of that, but we do need a change in the health care system and private business is only going to do what it takes to get them the best profit…………..after all,that’s what they are in business for.
July 20th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
Thank you, billie. I can hear the fear in some of the comments, fear that the government is taking over and we’re moving towards socialism, that we’re going to get hit by higher taxes, that employers are going to be penalized–all meant to create bias against a concept this country desperately needs–some form of affordable insurance coverage where everyone could quality, independent of any pre-existing conditions. Private health insurance will always remain an option for those who can afford it and who qualify. We need basic coverage for those whose employers don’t offer it, for those whose employers do but the premiums are still too high, for those who are not employed, and for those with health conditions who would ordinarily be denied coverage. I think those naysayers are very happy with what they have, are fearful that they will lose it, and who have no compassion for those who are left out through no fault of their own.
July 20th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
Wendy, I don’t believe people are turned away at any hospitals for not having coverage. My brother-in-law a few years ago had no coverage and went to a hospital and he was taken care of and not turned away. America does not do this! Yes, we are paying for those already who have no health care coverage and I would rather pay this way than go with poor quality coverage and not furthering the medical care system along with R&D and the government dictating to me or overseeing my health care needs. I live in a city where we have the best doctors and hospitals in the world and people from all over the world come here for all sorts of medical care. I don’t want to give this up!
July 20th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
It seems to me so much of the real issues are being lost. 1. The government never has nor ever will be an option for efficiency or savings. 2. Everyone seems to dance around the biggest problem, the “fitness level” of the American population.
No matter how it’s presented, the current administration wants government to control healthcare. I’ll be the first to agree there needs to be changes, but the free market system will handle it more efficiently. Why don’t they start with heavily taxing two of the biggest contributors to health related issues; tobacco and alcohol. Over 65% of healthcare costs are in the preventable category and by reducing the number of people smoking or drinking would be a nice start.
It seems that the U.S. is the one having to subsidize the Rx drug cost and R&D. Require an increase or levy on Rx Drugs being exported.
What about tax credits for employers that implement active and aggressive wellness programs.
No, people do not need to transform into exercise fanatics, but if we could get people to take a flight of stairs up or down instead of the elevator or escalator. Or park a few spots further out at the store and walk a little further, or add one piece of fruit or a serving of vegetables a day. Have you ever watched the movie “Supersize Me”. It’s horrible what we do to ourselves.
Yes, the price of insurance can be outrageous. The biggest reason is because the amount of claims they pay out. Yes there are horror stories out there, but for the most part, the cost is driven by the expenditures. Just as much blame can be placed on hospitals, doctors, labs, and the insureds. We’re all in this together.
July 20th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
To SMP:
Any private hospital has the right to turn anyone away. The only ones that are required to take you as a patient are those subsidized in some way by the Federal Gov. It happens every day. Why do you think that our emergency rooms at some hospitals are so overloaded? It’s because that is the only place they can get any treatment.
July 20th, 2009 at 2:20 pm
Your last comment is so incorrect billie – those are the hospitals that the uninsured population lives in the surrounding area. Of course the hospital out in sub-urban areas have less crowded ERs. Not too mention that those urban or inner city hospitakls are often loaded with drug addicts crashing from their high, those with drug related violence injuries, those with cold symptoms etc.. . I used to be in the social work field and I have seen this first hand. Most of the time it is not related to typical accident like injuries that should be in an ER.
Maybe you should volunteer in some inner city hospital ERs and see first hand what is going on versus watching Micheal Moore’s agenda filled rhetoric “Sicko.”
July 20th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
to Ed:
Of course they have those kinds of issues, I don’t deny that. But can you tell me where else people who don’t have any ins. coverage go for health issues if they do not have the money to pay for a Dr. visit? Yes, we have health dept’s, but they can’t treat many problems; we have medicaid, but many people don’t qualify (here you have to accumulate $5000 in medical bills before you qualify, and each time you have to re-qualify (every 3mos). (this also needs some attention for changes). How would you like to wait in an emergency room for 24hrs before anyone sees you when your abdomen is so distended that you look like you’re 8mos pregnant and in excruciating pain? Things like this happen all of the time and they should not. My main comment was that a hospital that is not Federally funded does NOT have to accept you as a patient. This DOES happen in America.
July 20th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
Ned:
It isn’t truly a “free market” when wealthy individuals have access and influence with all the legislators via campaign contributions and lobbyists. Anyone that believes that the free market will solve any of the major crisis in this country needs a reality check. You say the free market will handle it more efficiently in one breath and in the next suggest 3 tax increases or incentives as your solution. How does the free martket fit into that? I mean, the free market doesn’t create taxes; the government does.
SMP:
The people that are treated in emergency rooms instead of receiving preventative routine treatment are a great example of inefficiencies that need to be fixed, ie. universal coverage.
July 20th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
My concern is the “all in” nature of a national healthcare system.
Currently, federal health care is being advertised as optional. If an indivdual wants to keep his private insurance, he may. However, let me tell you about the experience I had in grad school in a Summer, 2007 Benefits class.
An aide from Congressman John Dingell’s (BIG national healthcare proponent) office grudgingly admitted, when questioned, that the only way this works is if everyone participates. If they do not, and wealthier people opt out, there simply will not be the financial base necessary to sustain the program – much like social security.
Don’t be dazzled. This is an incremental plan designed to get everyone off private insurance and into the national pool. To me, this is the truly alarming part.
July 20th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Billie,
I was just down in DC last week meeting with my states congressional delegation. The response from AARP is pretty much the response I recived from Democratics in Congress when I raised the concern over the “government run plan” leading to a single payor (socialized medicine program).
Here is the problem with AARP’s “facts”… A government run plan would reimburse providers at “Medicare reimbursement” or worse a combination of Medicare and Medicaid. Medicare currently pays about 78% of the COST for services provided by hospitals… Medicaid is about 54%. Over the last 20 plus years Hospitals and physicians have shifted the Medicare and Medicaid losses to private insurers causing private insurers to pay an estimated 30% more than needed, to offset for loses in Medicare and Medicaid. This cost shift represents about $1,800 per family of four per year. This is in essence just another tax on the 87% of Americans who have health insurance.
A public plan that reimburses providers at Medicare (below cost) would have a huge advantage over private insurers. In this economic climate if a small or medium size business has the opportunity to save 30% on health insurance they will move to the government plan. The Lewin institute estimates that over 60% of employers will move to the government plan in the first year and as much as 90% by year two. Meanwhile, hospitals will be cutting services that are not profitable early on before they finally fail all together and file for bancruptcy. Government will have to step in to prop up hospitals to ensure that there is adequate availablility of medical services. What will that cost tax payors (AIG, Bank of America, GM…does this sound familiar).
With almost everyone on the government run plan, existing insurance companies will either fail or pull out of the health insurance market leaving one plan… the government. When this issue is raised to Democratic Congressmen, they all say the same thing “I don’t support a single payor system” yet they are supporting the Senate Plan that allows the Secretary of HHS to set provider reimbursements and the House Bill that specifically states that providers will be reimbursed at “Medicare” rates for the first three years.
AARP may not support a single payor system where the government makes the decisions but they have to be smart enough to realize that when they support a “public plan” they are supporting an end around to single payor, socialized medicine! If you don’t believe this is true ask your self what company or individual would trun down a 30% savings for what promises to be the same service. I have never seen it in my 20 year career as a consultant.
July 20th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Gordon, the “free market” that you dispouse so much created the highest standard of health care in the world- with more break throughs in treatment than any other country in 20 years. You are not sounding like someone who is looking for an solution other than socialism-to see how well that has worked out I respectfully point out that those countries who currently subsribe to the Universal Coverage are waring us off it.(MSNBC story two weeks ago) But then why listen to England, Canada, Germany when those words do not support your blind faith in a higher central government. If you truly think that Universal Care is going to fix the inefficiencies in ER’s I point you to a CNN story this weekend about a Candian man who died after waiting 36 hours in a public hospital.
You are correct on one point the Goverment does create taxes- maybe we should do what they did in 1772 about the very same issue. I am expecting your typical synical, hateful tirade- don’t forget to call me names, point out what you think my politcal views are and most likely guess about my family in your response. It simply would not be as interesting if you had a sensible dialog.
July 20th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
I love how all you liberals call factual rebuttals “scare tactics”. Anytime a conservative presents factual information contrary to a liberal view of one of these freedom-robbing bill proposals, it is labeled as scare tactics. WTFU. homeland security also now labels anyone with a conservative political view a “right-wing extremist” and possible terrorist! the dems and the media are in control now and they are doing whatever they can to make sure it never changes, including brainwashing the american public into thinking anyone with half a brain that can think for themselves is an “extremist”.
billie and gordon, your clips from aarp and other liberal websites are utterly useless considering the source. it’s called “bias”, ever heard the term? and for the rest of you who think that we will all have plenty of “choice” for healthcare if this bills goes thru, i say again, WTFU. the gov’t run plan that is supposed to “compete” with free enterprise will undercut the rest, force them out of business, and we will be left with only one choice. eventually this will lead to rationing and will start a rash of new problems that will need to be “fixed”. it can’t and won’t work people, so don’t believe the Obama hype. if it’s supposed to be so good, them why wouldn’t Obama and the rest of his socialist cabal publicly agree to adopt the plan for themselves when asked on ABC’s nationally televised event? because they think they are above the rest of us and don’t feel they and their families should have to deal with the healthcare problems they know are sure to arise. this bill goes thru and we can all start waving bye-bye to what we call freedom.
oh and one more thing gordon, you think illegals won’t be voting in the next election? just wait until Queen Pelosi takes care of that little “problem”.
July 20th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
Layla – take a look at your post, I think you are the one on a tirade.
July 20th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
NED! You said it so correctly, I wasn’t even thinking about the people who voluntarily use and abuse Tobacco and Alcohol and all of the health issues that come from it. Never known a healty smoker or Alcoholic! A former Coworker of mine has COPD and STILL smokes almost 2 packs a day. She is on so many medications, it seems almost deadly but she said she can’t stop smoking. If the Insurance company would crack down on smokers and their coverage depended on it, tobacco companies might see a drop in usage. Obesity is a biggie as well, even kids are sicker and more overweight than they have ever been yet, the parents continue to buy the junk that they eat and then turn around and want to sue a food manufacturer or fast food restaurant because their child has a health condition perpetuated by their diet and lack of activity. Have you noticed that there are a lot more shows on discovery health and other channels dedicated to super obese people. There are millions of them that are homebound and no one knows about them until they get sick and they have to tear down walls to get them out. Imagine what healthcare costs for someone like that and who has to pay for it!
July 20th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
Thanks for the support Stacy. Most of the posts here simply talk about who’s going to pay for it. Nothing about doing something to lessen utilization. Let’s just throw a bandage on it and avoid the real problems. You can’t get any votes when you make people look in the mirror.
July 20th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Sure….let’s just ask those people in the UK, Canada and Germany who are waiting months if not years for health care – or the other towns that have lotteries to see who gets to see the doctor – but no problem if you are a dog or cat in Canada….you can get your MRI next day.
Personal responsibility should have some bearing here but the sense is that Obama wants to cut off anyone from coverage that is not a contributing member of society….and just what person makes that call I wonder? Scare tactics? Hardly – in UK 100,000 operations are cancelled yearly because they cost too much or some bean counter decides someone esle is more important.
Hey, if the countries that currently have this system are telling us not to go there – why aren’t we listening? I’ll tell you – because those who voted for the fool Obama can’t admit they made a whopping big mistake and they never will…..no matter what.
July 20th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
Lets not be disrespectful –
While I disagree with President Obama on pretty much every point – he is still the duly elected President of the United States and should be respected as such. That does not mean that we have to agree with him – but he still deserves the respect of his office.
July 20th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
The person called NObama: Its hilarious that conservatives always call anything with a right-wing slant – factual, and everything else biased. And are you one of the people with half a brain?
July 20th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Katie “Punishing people for doing well, by taking their money and giving to others is not democracy. It’s theivery.”
Please is that not EXACTLY what obama said in vieing for votes????? Spread the wealth!
Doesn’t matter about all those that are getting undeserved money……I don’t think ssi is being used as it was orginally intended. I know of different individuals who get this under disability and work for cash, ride new Harley’s, etc. Who are the fools, guess not the thieving liars!
May God bless those that seek and follow Him
July 20th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
Oh if we could only solve so many of these social problems. Solve gun violence (that would lessen ER utilization), the illegal drug use often involving gun violence, poverty (ditto), mental illness (ditto), not to mention smoking, alcoholism, obesity, cancer, high infant mortality rates.
Shall we wait until we have these resolved before designing a plan to help those who have no health insurance coverage? If you can come up with solutions to social problems, then great! Perhaps medical costs will tumble (but I wouldn’t count on it).
Those who are so quick to judge–haven’t we been exposed to a lot of hypocrisy lately?
July 20th, 2009 at 7:27 pm
Ignoring the facts does not make the facts go away. Come on people, we’re already paying way too much for people who would rather spend their healthcare money somewhere else (like sending it home to Mexico). We can’t afford it. You’re already whining about deductibles you can’t afford. How then can you afford to pay for someone else’s too? What happened to personal responsibility? My Grandfather and my Dad had what’s called a savings account for unexpected expenses. I’m really tired of hearing about people who can’t afford healthcare but they have two new cars, twice as much house as they need and spend God knows what on gas because they choose to live so far away from work. You can’t afford it because you didn’t use your money wisely. Now whats going to happen when you have to pay for your healthcare AND everybody else’s? Anybody who thinks this is not going to affect their own standard of living needs to look at the facts, do the math and quit blindly calling anything they don’t like “scare tactics” They’re not tactics and I”M SCARED
July 21st, 2009 at 6:08 am
No one is saying every social problem can be solved, I am only voicing my frustration about the ones that cost others who don’t have those problems a crap load O money in Health premiums. Think about it……they raised cigarette and alcohol taxes (some packs of Cigs are almost $10) and people are still taking hammers to their piggy banks to buy them. I am totally not judging, we all have vices, sure some of us indulge in the occassional cocktail, junk food or cigarettes but not to the detriment of our health. Drugs, Cigarettes, Alcohol and junk food, will ALWAYS be around and will always be abused, I have no doubts about that. Too many entities stand to lose money and jobs on the Vice Manufactuing, law enforcement, Government, Medical and Pharmacuetical sides. I have always thought the War of Drugs is a joke like most govt created Wars on whatever the latest “bad” thing is they are banging their drums about preventing or stopping. People have to WANT to quit these things and nothing or no one can stop them until they do or die. My point was that it’s just disturbing to see someone generating incredibly high medical bills due to habits that are truly hard to break or that they will let kill them eventually. It also costs money to kick the habit too and in the process, more medical claims are created but these would be worth it. It is truly disturbing to see people on disability that are able to work who live about as good as people that go out and work everyday and whether you see them or not, there are plenty of them MILKING the system. Come on people, I have seen amputees, Hearing Impaired, Sight Impaired, Mentally disabled folks, and Sr. Citizens commuting to work in the morning just like we do. Senior Citizens should not have to work if they have worked all their life and paid their dues and some of them find themselves having to go back to work because they can’t live in this economy. Not all of them may have been able to save for retirement like others do but they should all NOT have to pay another dime in taxes for anything. My parents are the lucky ones, they set themselves up early and my dad retired at 56 and my mom is 10 years younger and retired along with him. Seniors and truly disabled persons, and people who lose their jobs through no fault of their own should really be the ones benefiting from some sort of aid but get the short end of the stick. Back to my point, NO, I don’t want the government anywhere near my healthcare or anything else because nothing they ever do benefits the people, only the politicians. Yes, Obama was my candidate of choice and no I don’t agree with everything he says because I am a free thinker and I totally disagree on this so called Healthcare Reform. However, I believe we can all disagree with him without being disrespectful after all, we just put up with 8 years from George Dubyah so let’s not have short memories about the administration that created a lot of this mess. Pres Obama has the toughest job on earth because now, he’s got to try to fix as much of the damage as he can and manage to try to be reelected when this term ends. Yes, healthcare does need to be worked on but ONLY for those who don’t have it, not the people who are perfectly fine with what they have. It doesn’t matter what side of the arguement you are on……..We should all be afraid, very afraid!
July 21st, 2009 at 7:25 am
Ned, Oh, and you think the government runs efficiently. Why don’t you ask the Veterans who use the VA hospitals and have to obtain their drugs from the government? I was listening this morning on the radio about a woman in the Army who said she cannot go to a Wal-Mart to get her prescription drugs….she has to wait a week or two to receive her prescriptions in the mail from the government. And as for the free market doesn’t create taxes and the government does….The private sector and small businesses create jobs and tax revenues and the government steals from those that work hard on those jobs!
July 21st, 2009 at 7:31 am
SMP
July 21st, 2009 at 7:43 am
SMP
You are 100% correct – tho we (as a country) do provide health care thru the va hospitals and clinic to “those who qualify” it is by NO means equal to the quality of care you or I would get going to our own doctors under the insurance we have. The scheduling is months in advance and I have not found one person who has a serious condition such as cancer ever receive treatment of the condition, that would be more of an expense than our government can/will bear. I would say let every individual have the healthcare our military/vets have for just one year and when you return to private healthcare you will know that God has blessed us………..however, we could not blame God if He chose not to continue doing so – for a nation of people who keep shutting Him out because they believe they are able to improve their own lives without HIM.
July 21st, 2009 at 8:20 am
Great words Lisa!
July 21st, 2009 at 8:44 am
Sorry Ned….I didn’t mean to direct my statement to you….I was responding to Gordon.
And I ditto DCR!
July 21st, 2009 at 8:47 am
Sharon: Yes FSA’s, HSA’s, and all other like plans are set up pre-tax so I guess everyone would have to say goodbye to that benefit. Also, 401K’s and all other like plans which are pre-taxed would likely get chopped up next since the govt has to squeeze blood from a turnip to fund this whopping looming disaster. I am a firm believer in the HSA’s, and once people understand how they work, they usually jump right on. Because of the HSA, we are eliminating our HMO because we only have 4 participants. We hope to eliminate the Co Pay PPO in the next couple of years because every year, more and more people transfer to the HSA at Open Enrollment. I have had my HSA going on 3 years and I love it. The monthly premiums are low and if I don’t use it, the money in my bank account stays put. We am lucky that my company deposits 60% of our deductible every January no matter if you are individual or individual plus. Even with the employees deposit on behalf of the company, its less expensive for the company to have the HSA than any other plan. We also choose the plan that does not have a crazy high deductible because we wanted to encourage people to take advantage of it. Some other employers who have $5,000 deductible for Individual Plus or $2,500 for Individual and you are on your own. The low premiums and employer deposit are incentives for those who choose not to be covered, to enroll in a health plan. With Co-pay insurances, you pay sky high out of pocket premiums and if you don’t use it, there is no benefit, just money going one way. Yes, and Veterans should really take top priority over everyone because they gave life and limb on the front lines. If you look at how lousy their health coverage is, that’s exactly what we all have to look forward to happening eventually. This is a mess that MAN created and MAN has to fix.
July 21st, 2009 at 8:53 am
What we need is for our elected officals to be on the same program as the average person has to use. If that were the case – then things would be different, including SS.
July 21st, 2009 at 10:30 am
SMP,,,, thanks for the retraction. I was getting ready to pounce…
July 21st, 2009 at 10:42 am
Too late to weigh in?
Government Health Care? Is it good? Can we do it? Is it fair? Is if Free? First we should look at what is already ran 100% by the Government. Ask a vet if their health care is good, fast, and free. This is the government ran care at it’s finest. Or is it anything but good care?
Can we do this? Sure, most other countries have. It collapses their economy and further enslaves people to an increasingly growing federal government. But everything can be free without freedoms.
Is it fair? Well, health care is not a right! Not protected by our Constitution. So is it fair that people pay for what others use? Take myself, and I am sure there are many like me. I don’t have health care, nor do I visit hospitals or doctors. I do spend $150+ per month on proper nutrition and exercise, which to this point has kept me very healthy. So why do I have to pay for anyone else when I don’t use the system myself? Oh, because of the poor that can’t afford it right? Well I donate monies to help such causes, so why do i have to be taxed also? Even if i did not donate, why should I be forced to help others? Sure, it is a nice thing to do, but to be forced?
Ah, poor people need things. I am VERY tired of hearing this. I worked at a pharmacy where poor (cough) people would drive up in SUV’s (new ones) and complain about their $1 co-pay. Yes, many, many years of this. Not just one or two, but at least 30% of the scrips were for the so called poor.
Just because you are poor, it does not give you rights others don’t have. Right to cell phones, rights to health care, rights to housing, rights to vehicles, rights to education, and so on and so on. Why does anyone have to work hard, stay educated just to stay competitive, just to have their money handed to someone who does not? The large majority of poor I have interacted with are by choice! Yes, choice. They don’t choose to work harder, find education (free in libraries), or to get second jobs.
But the reality is control. The government does not want to fix the problem, but to gain control out of a problem or crises. Let me give you another example. The poor blacks in this country. I am tired of all these self righteous political heads that speak as if they really care about blacks, or anyone but their own power. IF they did, they would be forcing real education in schools as education is one of the best ways out of poverty that i know of. And they would force the cleaning of the streets from drugs and violence. But they don’t. They just spend money and talk, talk, talk, while taking more control, and more control. God Bless MLK. He was the ONLY black leader who really cared. Which is why he had to die. Oppression is the key to power. How many examples do we need to see in the world before we see it in ourselves?
Healthcare is easy. Keep government regs to a minimal (just to ensure safety) , open up the market to competition, put caps on lawsuits, and you have the start to cheaper and better healthcare.
Amazing that man was able to survive all this time without healthcare??? Anyone think of that?
Steven Crowder Exposes Canada’s Health Care:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2jijuj1ysw&feature=channel_page
Newt’s Heath Care Plan:
http://www.healthtransformation.net/
Compare Different Health Care Plans:
http://www.cprights.org/plans.php?s_kwcid=gingrich%20health%20care%7C3135759842&gclid=CNjz-eCK55sCFRJM5QodA3cA5w
July 21st, 2009 at 10:48 am
Regardless of which side of the debate you’re on I believe that lawmakers should have to live with the laws they pass and that includes living on Social Security, Medicare and the new health plan that they are passing.
If they had to live with it they would be more careful and more thoughtful! How can we change that?
By the way I work in a not-for-profit hospital and if we are reimbursed at Medicare levels for all patients we will be closed – we already have very little left over at the end of the year to replace aging equipment and do routine maintenance of the facility.
July 21st, 2009 at 10:58 am
Julie, My point exactly, if the Government Run Plan reimburses providers at Medicare rates they will put private insurance companies and many hospitals out of business. This will force all Americans into the Government run plan. It will also force the Government to further raise taxes and ration care to keep the hospitals afloat.
July 21st, 2009 at 11:01 am
Julie: You are correct! I am glad your input is from first hand knowledge. I see a lot of doctors offices that no longer accept government healthcare because of the paperwork hassle, how long it takes to be paid and most likely the amount they pay for medical services. If politicians had the same healthcare level as the average american, we would have the most Air Tight, well organized and profitable system in the world!
July 21st, 2009 at 11:04 am
The bottom line that can’t be spun is that the US is currently, among the industrialized nations, the sickest, we die the youngest and have the highest infant mortality.
Canadians, Germans, British, Dutch, Japanese, Swedes, Swiss and even Bosnians all live longer than Americans. Canada is very similar to the US, so the lack of health care for 60 million+ people in the US must be the primary reason we lag behind so many other nations.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/12/AR2007081200113.html
http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/sort.php
July 21st, 2009 at 11:17 am
Knowing the potential of some type of Gov’t run plan may be on the horizon, several of the good doctors I know have been getting their investments and stuff set up so they can either retire or move on to another business if it occurs. While we’d like to think all doctors / nurses, etc. are in their profession simply because they care, that’s not the reality of it. Yes, they care, but they want to get paid for their expertise.
Once you start controlling their pay, they leave, and then the shortage of docs and the wait to get into one will be incredible.
Same with drug companies, if you limit what they can make, R&D will come to a screeching halt or they will be kicking out drugs that are properly tested.
July 21st, 2009 at 11:22 am
Doctors in Europe and Canada make scads of money. Maybe we’d be better off if the greedy doctors left the profession, but I’d bet it’s just puffery and scare tactics on their part.
Drugs right now are not always properly tested, even in the US. The same exact testing of drugs will continue regardless of whether health insurance is modified or not. By US federal law, drugs are not allowed to come to market in the US without following a formal testing procedure that is highly monitored by the government. That will not change one iota.
July 21st, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Just like union card check(EFCA) where many were scared about that becoming a reality when in fact it was a bait and switch routine where we now have “fasttrack” instead (Canadian) where certified unions have 5-10 days (not 2-3 months) to get an employee vote and free reign to overrun your business with organizers – unfettered – no agreement ? Then they get a government appointed administrator to dictate how you will run your business. Sweet.
Still thinking the government is not approaching total control?
Same route with healthcare – they want us to believe it will be an all or nothing plan when in fact they will fall back at a strategic point to a position where they will easily get control and then systematically dismantle the existing system.
With all the mid/lower level functionaries they now have in place awaiting instructions – it will be easy for them and hard to detect and defeat.
These folks are not fools as we may have characterized them – instead they are cool, calculating folks bent on radical destruction of the country. First they must bankrupt it. Soon enough.
Joe Biden is merely the duffus out front to distract us and make us think they are all like him – they are not – pretty smooth operators.
July 21st, 2009 at 2:28 pm
Throwing “healthcare” at people is not going to solve the problem. That’s like taking a pain killer for back pain. Yes, you feel better for awhile, but the problem is still there. Yes, there are nations with better life spans than the U.S. They also have less fast food chains on every corner and have a society that is much less dependent on automobiles. They walk to the store, take public transportation and then walk the extra couple of blocks instead of parking in their office building, etc, etc.
Yes, the system needs some reform. The U.S. health system is antiquated in that it treats symptons, it doesn’t treat the cause. Has any disease actually been cured since polio? No money in that. If they are going to spend my tax dollars, I’d rather see them give large incentives to people/companies that actually cure something. Put the money toward the cause and we’ll get exponentially better health care in the long run.
Plus over 65% of health related costs are preventable or can be well controlled (hypertension, heart disease, cholesterol, Obesity and all it encompasses – liver, kidney, orthopedic, gall bladder, depression, etc. )
Yes, some Rx drugs should be tested longer, but no drug will ever be risk free until they solve the human genome issue. To think that R&D of Rx drugs won’t lessen when price restrictions are enacted is a pipe dream. Also, if the gov’t is the one controlling it, took think they won’t “loosen the standards” to get a drug to market if it’s less expensive is also naive. Can you say Rod Blagoevich? Or any other corrupt political official? (I know, that’s redundant)
July 21st, 2009 at 2:38 pm
Richard, no, you are not too late to weigh in…..Excellent post! I agree with many of your comments!
The government wants more power and cares about it more than the American people! This is why I hope it is held up. They (Obama and Congress) haven’t read the ramifications of the bill and yet Obama wants it immediately pushed through! Why do you think Obama is meeting with the “blue dog” democrats today?
July 23rd, 2009 at 12:56 pm
Richard, you hit the nail on the head.
This “healthcare reform” is very scary business. Sorry, but our government can’t handle its own finances now – I can only imagine what will happen when they get their hands on our healthcare money as well.
Having been in the position to negotiate health coverage for small, mid-size, and large companies, I can tell you that the small and mid-size companies have their hands tied behind their back when it comes to pricing. No wonder so many small businesses are dropping insurance benefits – rates go up, employee participation goes down due to cost, the employer can’t meet the 75% participation requirements – the only option the employer has is to contribute more in the hopes that it will push participation to 75% or drop coverage.
What needs to be done (IMO) is to allow small and mid-sized business to for insurance ‘co-ops’ in order to negotiate decent prices. Require all businesses to offer a plan, keep it deductible & tax-free to employees, and require all individuals to carry some form of insurance – from a government pool if necessary.
How to pay for it? A 1% national sales tax is the fairest way to distribute cost among everyone – the more you spend (upper-income earners) the more you pay. Low-income earners don’t spend as much so they don’t pay as much. And a sales tax catches all the “income” that doesn’t get reported – earnings by illegals, as well as all the cash that flows untaxed through the underground of illegal activities.
BTW, a cap on malpractice isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. My state put a cap on those lawsuits several years ago with the promise that health insurance rates would go down. Rates keep going up instead. Better to find a way to keep insurace companies from settling nuisance claims – now that would bring down rates!
July 24th, 2009 at 9:47 am
TERRIEJ: You are so correct when it comes to negotiating Health Insurance Renewals or finding a new health insurance company. There is very little negotiating with these insurance companies, they might give you a small decrease just to get you on but the next year, they try to clean your clock with the renewal. Been there, done that and bought the T-shirt! We are looking at a 7% to 10% increase for all 3 of our health plans next year.
July 24th, 2009 at 10:43 am
Stacey, sounds like you need a good broker.
TerrieJ, you hit on something that hasn’t been talked about much. Our firm sets up and administers several cooperative / consortium plans around the country for municipal, K-12 and Higher Ed groups. They have been very successful in moderating costs increases. Several have been almost flat or just slight increases the past few years. Great way to spread risks and reduce fixed cost with volume purchase efficiencies.
Yes, malpractice suits are another area that haven’t been talked a lot about. It costs a ob/gyn over $100,000 per year in malpractice insurance just to open his doors. That is part of the reason doc fees are high.
Yes, we need to somehow eliminate pre-existing condition clauses beyond what HIPAA provides. Yes, we need to figure out a way to get the 46 million uninsureds some type of coverage (minus the illegals). Yes, we need to concentrate our efforts on making our society more respectful of ourselves and start taking better care of ourselves. I don’t like taxes but if they were going to make them meaningful, such as tax on tobacco, alcohol, fast food, etc, then I’d be willing to accept those. Because I can control my use of those. The extra tax funds would go to subsidize the uninsureds.
We do not need a gov’t run plan. I’m surprised more hasn’t been brought up on a national basis about how “great” the care is at VA hospitals. I guess we know who controls the press.
July 24th, 2009 at 11:44 am
NED: I love the idea of taxes on fast food, alcohol and cigarettes. That would be incentive to quit all 3 vices!
July 28th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
Ned,
How would you eliminarte the pre existing clause? That clause is there to keep people from waiting until they’re sick tho buy insurance. That would be like waiting until you wreck your car to buy insurance. You think rates are high now? Try health insurance with no pre existing clause.
July 29th, 2009 at 7:41 am
I guess its hard for me to fathom how people don’t have health insurance since I have always had coverage from birth to 18 on my parents and from 18 to present on my own. Health Insurance no matter what my jobs paid was always TOP priority so maybe I am being a bit insensitive to others who have to make such a choice about whether to keep food on the table or pay high health insurance premiums. It’s hard to put myself in their shoes also as HR Manager when I have employees who choose NOT to have coverage but go on fab vacations a
July 29th, 2009 at 7:54 am
Continued: And drive nice cars and eat out every night all the while thinking nothing will ever happen to them because they are young and presumably healthy. At my company we do not have a waiting period for all employee benefits. You are eligible for the first of the month following your date of hire. I was hired on March 17, 2001 and my Health Coverage was to start April 1, 2001. My daughter got sick with pneumonia Friday, March 28, 2001 and I didn’t have a lick of insurance just 3 days from eligibility! She was hospitalized from Friday to Sunday morning around 9AM. Because I didn’t have coverage, the hospital charged me the MAXIMUM amount they could. Expenses normally regulated by health insurance were sky high. My bill was almost $6,000 and I had to pay every single penny w/ interest! That is my horror story I always tell to those who say that the employee share premium is too high. I tell them, you’d rather pay the premium than let the hospital or doctor send you a bill for charges that are unchecked.
July 29th, 2009 at 8:05 am
Stacy please let me give you an example why many Americans do not have health insurance. My daughter and son-in-law work full time. My SIL works for a very small private company that doesn’t offer insurance. My daughter was laid off 7 months pregnant in Dec and had carried the health insurance. COBRA was offered at $700/month.
There is no way that they could make it and afford $700 COBRA and still pay their bills. So yes, 7 months pregnant my daughter was uninsured and their income was just a little bit over Medicaid.
So yes sometimes people do legitimately have to choose between food & insurance.
July 29th, 2009 at 8:34 am
Julie, didn’t your daughter qualify for the second opportunity to elect COBRA and pay only the 35% premium due to the ARRA?
COBRA would then have been $245.00 per month.
July 29th, 2009 at 10:22 am
Ed,
When did that come into effect? If it was in effect Dec/Jan she should have been but no one offered it to her.
July 29th, 2009 at 10:23 am
It’s not just the premiums that deter people from getting coverage–it’s also the pre-existing conditions. If you have or have had asthma, or hypertension (you name it, it will appear on their list), you’ll be denied coverage. And let’s not lay blame for what people consider unhealthy lifestyles. Not all medical conditions can be averted by proper diet and exercise!
July 29th, 2009 at 10:33 am
Julie – send me your e-mail address and I’ll send you info about the ARRA and COBRA. Many people qualified for a second election period and a reduced premium that is being subsidized by the Federal government.
July 29th, 2009 at 10:37 am
JULIE: you must have misread what my post was about. My post was about people who are presently employed and have the opportunity to enroll in Health Insurance but choose not to enroll because they simply don’t want the money coming out of their checks when they could easily afford it but would rather spend the money on something that won’t help them if they get sick. COBRA is a completely different thing because you would have had health coverage if your employment wasn’t terminated. Absolutely it’s hard when anyone has to make the choice of getting COBRA vs. being able to stay a float with other household expenses add to that a baby that is coming whether you have coverage or not and you have a formula for lots of stress and anxiety. Your daughter is in an unfortunate position and I hope that everything works out for them, in fact, I am sure it will. I don’t want you to think I am being insensitive to COBRA participants because I wasn’t, that could be me and my family one day. Your daughter should be eligible for the 65% COBRA Subsidy but depending on how expensive the monthly premium is, some folks can’t even afford that which is also unfortunate since it was supposed to be such a help. There were a few that were laid off at my company and still cannot afford to pay the 65% of the premium which is still to expensive when you are on unemployment. Only one person out of all the re-notifications I sent is taking advantage because they don’t have a choice. His spouse has a medical condition that would wipe them out 6 times over if they didn’t have health insurance. Their 65% is based on an EE/Spouse Premium well over $1000. All their kids are grown and luckily their house is paid for but they still having to make cuts here and there to be able to pay their share of the premium. Again, I wasn’t directing my barb at COBRA participants at all.
July 29th, 2009 at 10:48 am
Stacy – please tell me that you are only charging your ex-employees 35% of teh premium.
July 29th, 2009 at 10:55 am
Regarding pre-existing conditions coverage, the idea of people getting insurance coverage is to have people get healthier because they get the preventative testing done, manage their health by visiting the doctor and taking any prescribed medications as directed. When insurance companies deny coverage of these conditions or make the premium so high that the person doesn’t take the insurance, the person often does not monitor or care for themselves as well as they should due to the high out of pocket expense. Due to the cost of medication, people often stretch their medication by taking it when they are “having a bad day” versus the way it was directed to be taken. If people can have their condition monitored and stabilized, they will be healthier in the long run. Some medical conditions (hypertension and diabetes, for example) may lead to many other health problems if not properly controlled. The cost may be higher to the insurance company on the front end, but in the long run it will not be as expensive. I understand that there will still be people who don’t properly care for themselves, but this will happen with or without insurance coverage for some people.
Also, if a comment comes through from me that is only partially complete and is now repeated here, I apologize. My Internet screen refreshed itself and I lost my original comment so I did another one.
July 29th, 2009 at 10:55 am
ED: I am completely dyslexic today!
July 29th, 2009 at 10:56 am
Our health coverage will pay for your pre existing condition IF you can prove that you were formerly covered by retrieving your certificate from your former employer. If not, the 60 day waiting period will apply before they pay for anything related to your pre existing condition. So far, employees who and their enrolled dependents who have these issues, have been able to retrieve their proof of coverage from former employees. Of course with the economy tanking, that little utopia of mine is sure to be a different statistic and we will see new hires who were not covered because they hadn’t been employed for quite a while or could not afford COBRA with former employer but has pre existing health condition that the 60 day waiting period will apply to.
July 29th, 2009 at 10:57 am
I am having technical difficulties too, my screen keeps refreshing so I am writing in word, copy and paste to here.
July 29th, 2009 at 10:58 am
You had me scared for a second.
Have a great day – and may God find it in our best intrests to let a strong recovery start soon.
July 29th, 2009 at 11:00 am
Ed, I had a moment of panic myself because we already received our 2nd qtr credit! Whew
July 29th, 2009 at 11:11 am
Stacy, kudos to you for giving Julie some valuable info. Julie, I hope your daughter’s situation improves soon. Best wishes for a healthy grandbaby for you to enjoy.
Wendy, you are correct. Pre-ex needs to be reformed. HIPAA helped eliminate the majority of this, but it still exist for many policies. Let’s keep in mind, pre-ex was implemented to help keep premium cost lower. So there will be an adverse affect on pricing. But let’s eliminate and get that hurdle out of the way.
Also, yes, healthy eating and exercise won’t eliminate all medical conditions. However, fact is, 65% of healthcare costs are preventable or controllable. Whether it’s asthma, diabetes, hypertension, cholesterol, obesity related, etc., these are the issues driving much of the costs. These can all be controlled by healthier diets and some activity. This doesn’t mean becoming vegan and a triathlete, but it does mean looking in the mirror and telling ourselves, maybe I don’t need to drink 3+ soft drinks a day, maybe I could take the stairs one flight up instead of the elevator, instead of laying on the couch watching tv I could stretch or do some yoga or crunches, or why not grab a piece of toast and an apple on my way to work instead of a egg & sausage mcmuffin, or maybe I’m not ready or able to quit smoking but I could reduce the number of cigarettes I smoke.
These are the things that are killing us costs-wise and none of the reform addresses this.
July 29th, 2009 at 11:35 am
Ned: those issues are my very pet peeve. You definitely cannot fix the system if they aren’t at least addressed. Who could take a Smoking Cessation TV and Magazine ads seriously if it is run by the very company that manufactures the cigarettes (TRUTH). Who could take eating healthier seriously if the ad campaigns are run by the very food Manufacturers that sell the stuff (Fast Food Restaurants). People don’t go to fast food restaurants to eat salads and that is a fact! Junky foods are usually convenient and cost way less than the healthier alternatives which is why the US has the most Obese Poor adults and children in the world. There are people suing fast food restaurants because they CHOOSE to go there every day and feed themselves and their dependents and have become morbidly obese and have health problems. What is our legal system coming to?
July 29th, 2009 at 11:47 am
Sure we should all be following healthy lifestyles. Talking about it isn’t going to change anyone’s habits. But even so, healthy lifestyles won’t reverse or stem many medical problems, for which there are social and economic causes, and genetic origins. And they’ve been around for decades. Only now is there real discussion about doing something about it, to help those who can’t afford and/or can’t get medical insurance coverage which will alleviate our overcrowded Emergency Rooms, and hopefully prevent some of the more serious remedies (like amputations) for those with advanced medical problems because they’ve seen a doctor when they should have, and they’re taking the medication prescribed, because both avenues are now affordable.
Even many of those who are fortunate enough to have employer-sponsored healthcare coverage are screaming about the premiums. The premiums are outrageous for those who are fortunate enough to qualify for individual insurance but can’t get group rates. And those who don’t qualify? It’s not unusual to get an Emergency Room bill in the thousands of dollars. Don’t believe it when you’re told by the pundits that the hospitals will write it off. Not so fast!
July 29th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
Obama’s own doctor of 20 years has just said he is disappointed in the proposed government healthcare plan as there are no provisions for cost control. He states he sees no way for it to succeed. Apparently he feels no compulsion about speaking up because it is so bad. Why would any bill from people that came from Chicago have any cost controlling provisions – that would impair the fleecing of the taxpayer as is so common there.
To further insult all of us – even the die hard socialists – Representative Conyers from Michigan was on TV laughing about how his fellow representatives and constituents were urging him to read the bill……he said it was too long and too hard to understand and that he’d need two lawyers to help him. Uh, folks if this self professed and lazy dumbass isn’t doing his job (he can affords to hire two attorneys we can’t) then this discussion is moot.
Obama in November of 2008 said that the very same tactics he is now using – ramming the foot high legislation (he points to it on tv) no one has read down for a “rush vote” that no one could possibly understand (by Bush et al) was something he would stop immediately.
Obama lied.
That being the case how can this plan be promoted as being more efficient? Obama has also shown an abyssmal lack of knowledge for treating heart arrythmias when he said he would suggest giving an ELDERLY patient pain medication in lieu of a proper course of treatment. Just kill them instead. He also wants doctors to have the endof life discussion with people when they are 50 and get it in writing…..we live to 80 and longer……how relevant is that info?
Obama’s inexperience is shining through like sunshine – take your sunglasses off.
So by trickle down theory his appointed Czar of the dispensed “care” could conceivably eliminate choices for certain predetermined groups of persons considered not useful to the (society) administration – like the “Mentally Retarded” referred to on page 386 of the bill (that term is what 10-15 years old – like the bill) or others as deemed expendable by the Obama Appointed Science Czar who proposed in his 1977 book (so it is public record) that the US public water supply contain sterility drugs to prevent birthing of/by “undesirables”……who the hell are these wackos Obama is appointing?
So – do you still want any of these people in charge of YOUR health care
July 29th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
The Nazi’s proposed the same sterility measures too back in the 1930’s….
July 29th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
The few doctors and economists who have read the bill found it to be loaded with items unrelated to healthcare but instead were social engineering projects from the 60’s…..and that we could conceivably cover those pesky “uninsured” for about $29-30 Billion not the 2 Trillion plus….if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck……maybe?
July 29th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Completely untrue. It’s proven that healthy lifestyle can stem and often reverse many medical conditions. Yes there are some conditions that it will not have any affect on, but the studies show, conditions generating 65% can be affected. On the far end of this, I’ve known a couple people that were supposed to die within a year from cancer. They refused chemo and went on a strict diet and utilized certain vitamins/herbs and over 8 years later, they’re still around and look great. No this doesn’t work for everyone, but it shows the affect it can have even on the back end. Gee, I wonder what would happen if we incorporated just a portion of this on the front end.
No one seems to question why premiums are so high. The biggest issue is claims are so high. Other issues are:
• Fraud – both on the provider and patient side. Gov’t is the king of fraud, so this will continue or get worse
• In a new study they showed obesity related issues create 20% of the healthcare costs( I believe it is even higher) We’re a nation of hogs. But you can’t garner any votes when you tell people the truth.
• Typically I have seen individuals successfully negotiate up to 40 – 50% off the costs when dealing with hospitals. They realize 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing. My wife had some work done that wasn’t covered in our network. We called the hospital and told them we would be willing to pay “x”, which was 35% below, and they said yes without hesitating. I’ve heard countless stories like this.
• Malpractice awards – Lawyers are making hay on this. By the way, you can’t sue the gov’t, so that will go away.
• Yes, uninsureds drive up the costs because we’re all paying for them. Does the fact these people now have insurance magically reduce the overall costs? Many of these 46 million elect not to have coverage and many are relatively healthy. Yes, it should lessen to some degree the costs for the chronic condition folks, but now were paying to cover people aren’t creating claims. I consider this one a wash.
July 29th, 2009 at 12:35 pm
Wendy: You are correct on all accounts. My biggest thing is not wanting the Govt to be involved in my healthcare because there is nothing wrong with it. I know there are a lot of alarmists who aren’t completely right, but they aren’t completely wrong either. There are millions of people out there that truly can’t afford to be on their employer healthcare plan because it’s too expensive and trying to get insurance on your own is virtually impossible. There are insurance companies that trick people into believing they can be self insured when in reality, these companies take peoples hard earned money and give them little coverage in return. A good majority of employers have adopted the HSA plans which is the only choice of coverage they carry. In addition to a monthly premium, employees need to meet the $5,000 or $3,000 deductible and while the cost of services are contracted with the health insurance company at a discounted rate, it can seem as if you have no insurance at all when you aren’t paying a co-pay. Again I admit, I have been spoiled with the best coverage all of my life and non of it had anything to do with govt run healthcare. Yes, the premiums are sky high and I know we are going to probably get hit with another double digit increase for 2010. We are experience rated with groups of similar sizes across the board and depending on the year we have with claims, it could be pretty ugly. It used to be a time when you could tell an insurance company that you wre looking at their competitor and that would be enough leverage for them to decrease the renewal just to keep your business. Since Illness has become extremely profitable for these insurance companies they seem to care less whether you go to a new company if you are a small group employer, the increase is what it is like it or not. We have great brokers who negotiate the best rate and even they can’t make them budge much sometimes.
July 30th, 2009 at 7:26 am
President Obama, himself, has not read this healthcare bill in its entirety, how can we expect anyone to do so. Would it all be passed if it were in smaller parts and people could get a better grasp on it? No, I have not spoken to even one person who would be okay with it, in stating just of the items I am aware of……
Your current employer based insurance can be grandfathered in for 5 years after the bill starts and after that you have to have exactly what the government has everyone else on. If even one word of your policy is changed then the grandfathering clause is out and you are automatically on the gov. deal. If you are an health insurance salesman you will only be able to sell exactly what the government offers no more, no less. And if you are elderly, disabled, etc they will determine your “quality of life” before any amount of money will be spent for your medical procedures.
Where are all the people who voted for this &%#*%!@? Perhaps they will be happy with his cap & tax bill and his offered healthcare. It is going to hurt the truly God driven people. Give it all to them and let the rest of us go on ours.
May God bless those who follow Him and do as He asks because in doing so it means they also love Him.
July 30th, 2009 at 8:08 am
Lisa –
You use symbolic cursing and then praise God in the same post? That completely destroys your credibility.
I do not agree with the President’s ideas but he is still the duly elected President of my Country – he therefore deserves respect. God has a plan that we cannot even begin to fathom.
ALL things work together for the good of those that love Him.
We might not see it – but we must put all our trust in Him.
July 30th, 2009 at 10:44 am
This debate is exhausting. I’m clocking out.
July 30th, 2009 at 11:42 am
Ed,
My respect has to be earned and a title alone does not earn my respect. Obama has done absolutely nothing yet to earn my respect. Quite the opposite in fact.
July 30th, 2009 at 11:44 am
Ed,
Another thing. Read Revelations again and see if you can pick out who Obama is in the scheme of things. I can fathom a little bit of his plan. It’s written down just read it.
July 30th, 2009 at 11:54 am
Have you the “wisdom” that God speaks about in Revalations – have you calculated the number of the beast?
I think not –
I would exercise extreme caution in claiming to know God’s purpose!
July 30th, 2009 at 11:57 am
This string has played out. It’s bad enough we’re discussing politics, but throw religion in too, and it’s time to move on.
July 30th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
Thanks Ned! I subscribed to this string to learn others opinions on HEALTHCARE REFORM not RELIGION. This was a great thread that ran for more than 5 days and I enjoyed hearing everyone’s points of view on it. People need to keep in mind that we ALL subscribed to this thread and can’t undo it so if they want to argue religion, please get each others personal e-mail addresses and have at it.
July 30th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Actually Stacy you can stop the notificartions of new posts. It is a link in the e-mail that you get with new post notifications.
If YOU do not want to read the posts that are religion related THEN DO NOT DO IT.
There is no freedom from religion!
July 30th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Thanks for the info Ed! Done deal! no need to e-shout! I am a secular individual therefore, I consider myself free from Religion which is MY Human Right.
Thanks!
July 30th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Hrrrmph for Stacy..
July 30th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
Stacy –
Get it right –
You are free to not practice religion if that is your wish – you are not free to silence others regarding their religion.
I wasn’t e-yelling – I was copying the all caps use that you had employed – nothing more than that.
July 30th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
Ed Says:
July 30th, 2009 at 8:08 am
You ASSUME that I had a cursing thought – I did not.
Sharon D Says:
July 30th, 2009 at 11:42 am
AMEN – I have always said that Obama has a dark side, and I do NOT mean his skin color.
His healthcare plans follow much of what his wife did with U of Chicago – that is unacceptable!
Stacy Says:
July 30th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Be as you would like……I believe that religion sets our rules and government is to enforce them. It is diversion from that which has caused our nation to be on a never ending downward spiral to hell.
Few more years and we can all stand where we will for judgement. What a glory that will be.
My God is awesome!
July 31st, 2009 at 8:12 am
Well Lisa –
!@#$% – has been widely know as electronic cursing since the early 80s.
If you did not have a cursing thought why was there a need to not write out your thought in english?
Again – God is in control and you nor I can even begin to fathom how things will work to His benefit.
As for Nationalized Health Care – my family could use coverage but when they tell me my child is not worth the money . .
August 3rd, 2009 at 11:38 am
The point is the bill is too complex. If congressmen can’t even bother to read and understand it how do you thing the average hospital administrator is suppose to?
We will spend more time doing paperwork to satisfy government buracracy and less time on patient care and we will lose good doctors and healthcare workers. It just isn’t worth it – we already spend more time on paperwork than patient care while every year Medicare and Medicaid payments are slashed. (How do you add staff to do the paperwork while reimbursement is cut? That is not doable in any business sense.)
And my biggest pet peeve – of course congress is exempt from this health care plan – they still get to keep their own plan which is a lot better than what the majority of us will ever see. (Just like social security that most of us have to live on and congress has their own retirement plan and don’t have to worry if SS runs out of money.) Morally and ethically this is just wrong!
August 3rd, 2009 at 11:41 am
Some excellent points.
August 10th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
Funny how all the near riots are happening over the Obamacare issue…..and they are instructed to go out and cramp it down our throats. Will we be shocked when so few really want it and it passes anyway?
God help us.
August 10th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Lisa, if this passes and I think this group is arrogant enough to do it….we are doomed. We cannot rescind it. A government program never gets dropped! I watched Gov. Huckabee’s show on Fox this past Saturday and his segment was about Health Care reform. The congresswoman, governor, and doctors were lying through their teeth! Gov. Huckabee asked the Cong. Sanchez from CA if the whole Congress will be participating in the same health care plan/reform as they want all of us to be in and she just “tap danced around”. If they don’t take care of tort reform, then they might as well forget about it! Right now, I plan on voting them all out in 2010 and hope others feel the same! This government is spending our money like “drunken sailors” and I’m sick of it!
August 10th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
Study after study has shown that medical malpractice adds only 3% to the U.S. health bill, so that’s obviously another urban legend stoked by the health insurance industry. When I see that in someone’s post, I immediately suspect everything else they write…sorry, that’s just common sense.
Another issue not spoken about here is the hidden tax Americans pay for health care. I am very aware of the hidden tax. I pay my entire health insurance bill which is $612/month for aver$11,000 in income each year just to pay my health insurance!!…that works out to $5.50 per hour. And that does not include my $500 deductible and co-pays.
August 10th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
SMP – you got it on the nose – congress isn’t going to have to live with this plan – ever!
Wish we could vote them out and start over with a reasonable wage, health plan, regular social security (like the rest of us – no cushy retirement plan after 1 term) and term limits for Senators too. Maybe then ‘they’ would actually do the people’s business instead of working for themselves.
August 10th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
jjkmack, sounds like that hopey/changey thing isn’t working for you these days…..
August 10th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Sure it is –
He has nothing but CHANGE in his pocket – that is his complaint.
August 10th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
SMP and Ed, I take it your personal attacks are because you have no facts, just “beliefs” with no thought or facts behind them.
August 10th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
This recent article and more sure SHOULD wake up America:
Barack Obama is more than just denouncing those who disagree with him on health insurance reform. He has the White House website targeting individuals. He has asked that fellow Americans turn on fellow Americans and report to a White House email address the names of those who disagree with him. He has not made clear what repercussions await those who get reported.
The rhetoric by the White House and Democrats on the Hill has become visceral, not just with the usual hollow claims of hate, fear and greed, etc., but also Senator Barbara Boxer’s weird insult that the protestors aren’t sincere because Americans don’t wear nice clothes.
Politics is rough and tumble, but a President collecting the names of people who disagree with him is downright scary.
August 10th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
things that make you go hmmmmm? Don’t you think?
Under fascism, the state, through official CARTELS, controlled all aspects of manufacturing, commerce, finance, and agriculture. Planning boards set product lines, production levels, prices, wages, working conditions, and the size of firms. Licensing was ubiquitous; no economic activity could be undertaken without government permission. Levels of consumption were dictated by the state, and “excess” incomes had to be surrendered as taxes or “loans.” The consequent burdening of manufacturers gave advantages to foreign firms wishing to export. But since government policy aimed at autarky, or national self-sufficiency, PROTECTIONISM was necessary: imports were barred or strictly controlled, leaving foreign conquest as the only avenue for access to resources unavailable domestically. Fascism was thus incompatible with peace and the international division of labor—hallmarks of liberalism.
Fascism embodied corporatism, in which political representation was based on trade and industry rather than on geography. In this, fascism revealed its roots in syndicalism, a form of socialism originating on the left. The government cartelized firms of the same industry, with representatives of labor and management serving on myriad local, regional, and national boards—subject always to the final authority of the dictator’s economic plan. Corporatism was intended to avert unsettling divisions within the nation, such as lockouts and union strikes. The price of such forced “harmony” was the loss of the ability to bargain and move about freely.
To maintain high employment and minimize popular discontent, fascist governments also undertook massive public-works projects financed by steep taxes, borrowing, and fiat money creation. While many of these projects were domestic—roads, buildings, stadiums—the largest project of all was militarism, with huge armies and arms production.
August 10th, 2009 at 4:28 pm
How ironic that the Democrats are being blamed for visceral attacks, while town meetings can’t be held because discussion and decorum and democratic principles are being shouted down. I can’t get over how people are able to twist the truth to suit their purposes. Threats, both personal and possibly physical, are being raised against politicians. That smacks of criminal activity. Talk about Nazism, Socialism, Fascism, euthanasia of the elderly (whaa???), coverage for sex-change operations, and so forth, reflect ignorance, not knowledge. The far right don’t want the truth communicated, that’s why they stop the town meetings cold. It’s pathetic, how desperate they are.
August 10th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
Years ago people did complain so much about health care costs etc. Give me one who has a VALID right to complain and I may agree, ALL things considered. I am tired of people thinking they should be given…… you name it, they think they should have it all and NOT work for it.
August 10th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
sorry, first line should be “did NOT”
August 10th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
jjkmack
I don’t think you took into account the malpractice premiums the doctors and hospitals pay when you stated that medical malpractice only adds 3% to the total health bill. The 3% is over and above that but that will never change. The bulk of our congressmen are attorneys. They will never limit mal-practice awards to what is reasonable.
August 10th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
Wow Wendy, its usually the democrats that have a problem with decorum and discussion and prefer to picket and shout and disrupt.
Pot, kettle, black, huh?
August 10th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
It will continually amaze me that we can all look at the same subject and see it so differently.
I still think it is just basically too complex to implement the way they have it written. I’m all for reform – I just don’t think this particular bill is the correct solution!
(And I still think that congress and the President should have to participate in what ever they pass!!
August 10th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
Amen to that!
That is why we have all the “wordy” bills.
Should get accountants in there instead. They know you cannot continue to increase income, you need to cut expenses to balance.
October 22nd, 2009 at 4:01 pm
I have a lot of problems with univeral healthcare (most mentioned here already). It is statistically impossble to raise the healthcare standard of the lower tier to meet the higher tier without raising costs prohibitively. So, they must reduce the level of care for the higher tier to equalize. That is socialism. No way to better yourself by working for it because government ordains that everyone must share equally, not in relation to what they earn or can afford.
I don’t believe we will get to keep the insurance we have if we’re satisfied. Healthcare is not a big moneymaker for insurance companies. If they can’t complete with the government option, they’ll get out of the business or raise premiums to make up the money. This is headed to a single payer system and then we’ll have no choices.
Why does the government never look at the unintended consquences of what they do? They believe everyone will keep on behaving as they are now, just forking over more money to them. It doesn’t work that way. If payroll taxes go up, people still won’t be able to afford insurance. If doctors can’t make a good living because reimbursements are cut, there’ll be a shortage of doctors, and we will have rationed care whether this bill provides specifically for it or not. This will change how the whole industry does business; they can’t begin to predict the consequences of such a complicated/convoluted bill.
Also, I do believe illegal aliens will have to be covered. Our Constitution says “persons” not “citizens” with regard to access to public services. That issue has already been decided by the courts and is why illegal immigrant children can attend public school. Obama appeases the masses by promising illegals won’t be covered when he knows the courts will overturn it.
This goverment seems intent on controlling as much of our lives and businesses as it can. It’s more than a little frightening. I agree healthcare needs some reform, but this is not the way.
October 23rd, 2009 at 10:34 am
Well said Kathy! If it were just for Senior Citizens and people who have “real” disabilities, I wouldn’t think twice about it. There are too many able bodied people out there who take advantage of the system and load it down and always demand MORE and YES, Illegal Aliens will benefit, heck, they already are. The number of uninsured is really inaccurate, it is inflated…because it includes illegal aliens to make their case. Healthcare DEFORM is going to be a nightmare just like every other thing the Government is involved in. They should do this for those that need it and leave those of us who don’t alone. Why don’t they create an insurance company just for that?
October 23rd, 2009 at 11:00 am
I’m in Massachusetts where all the welfare recipients have first dollar coverage with Mass Health. Those who truly need help are the small businesses and self-employed. They make up most of the legitimately uninsured and this bill doesn’t help them that I can see. They need to be able to form groups to have access to insurance at group rates. Not a big problem to solve, I would think. It’s a shame that the reward for working is having no insurance; they are actually better off here to go on welfare. And yes, the senior citizens. Medicare supplements and prescriptions are very costly, and now they want to cut Medicare reimbursements to pay for the Health Reform Bill. That makes sense? Penalize these retired people who’ve worked hard all their lives just when they need care the most. They’ll be lucky to find a doctor who will take Medicare.
We have mandatory healthcare here, and that’s not working. The lower incomes still can’t afford insurance, but access to free emergency care at hospitals and clinics has dried up because they’re all supposed to have insurance whether they can afford it or not.
Wouldn’t it make more sense to address these needs individually instead of this sweeping reform that is not needed and is going to bankrupt most of us.
October 23rd, 2009 at 11:59 am
This administration and Congress will never create an insurance company for just the uninsured, because it is all about power and control over everyones’ lives. They know that the American people don’t want this “shameful/disgraceful” healthcare bill but it doesn’t matter because they know what is best for all of us….They believe in spending money like drunken sailors and tanking our economy! The Serfs gave the King 25% of their earnings which is way way less than what we have to give our government.
October 23rd, 2009 at 12:14 pm
BRAVO SMP!!! Ditto Kathy!
I heard about the MA Mandatory Insurance Law. You’d think they’d see that it’s not working but I am beginning to believe that the Govt loves to put things in place that don’t work. I swear, sometimes, I don’t want to vote anymore because it seems like nothing more than a popularity contest to see who will win afterwhich, most elected officials don’t care what “the people” want, they whip out the real agenda which is NOT the one that was part of the campaign. Congresspeople, senators and a boatload of other uncessary elected officials will not be affected by Healthcare Deform so what do they care. SMP, at this point, being a serf doesn’t look that bad especially if it costs me less in taxes!
October 23rd, 2009 at 2:26 pm
Try voting in the Commonwealth of MA. We haven’t had a decent choice of candidates in years. Our courts are clogged indicting them all, but not until after they’ve qualified for their golden parachutes.
October 23rd, 2009 at 3:09 pm
I live in MA and am dealing with the Republican Mitt Romney developed scheme of forcing most people to buy private insurance by penalizing people who don’t with income tax penalties. The mandatory part is similar to car insurance but of course, much less affordable. The good news is that it’s easy to get into a group in MA, but the bad news is price and especially age discrimination.
So for a late 50s person such as myself, private insurers charge $610 per month (after tax income) for single person, average insurance with a $500 deductible, etc. This works out to about $5.50 per hour in income needed just to pay health insurance if you’re not partially covered by an employer!
Though cheaper than other parts of the U.S., MA health insurance is just not affordable for large numbers of people in the U.S., including MA, especially considering that at a minimum wage job, you would end up spending all of your money on health insurance, leaving out fairly important things like food, shelter, transportation, etc. Though MA has made an effort to alleviate some of the problems with U.S. health insurance, allowing the private insurers who are the root of the problem to gain more business at whatever they choose to charge is not sustainable.
October 26th, 2009 at 6:40 am
Its sad that the very people we put in office to represent us, always do the complete opposite. In listening to the disaster in MA, it’s enough to make you want to relocate and it should tell us all to be afraid……be very afraid!