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	<title>Comments on: &#8216;Presenteeism&#8217;: Does it really hurt the bottom line?</title>
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	<description>Your daily dose of HR</description>
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		<title>By: Patricia</title>
		<link>http://www.hrmorning.com/presenteeism-does-it-really-hurt-the-bottom-line/comment-page-1/#comment-27896</link>
		<dc:creator>Patricia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 19:23:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hrmorning.com/?p=4513#comment-27896</guid>
		<description>Tom, 

Being present when very ill is not always better than staying home and there can be direct costs to a company when someone forces themselves to work when they are ill.  

First, you can physically be present but not productive.  I have been at work with the stomach flu and spent most of the day in the washroom.  The work I did had to be redone.  The business lost the work time when I was there ill and lost more of my time when I felt better and had to correct the mistakes I made when I was ill.

Secondly, you are much more likely to make mistakes because of illness and the medications you take to allow you to crawl to work.  If someone has a desk job, it depends on their level of responsibility as to how much a mistake could cost the company.  If someone does a more physical job, the safety issues are more tangible.  Dropping a plate of food on someone, getting into a car accident or using bad judgement on the production line can mean a hospital trip, a workers comp claim/liability claim or even death.  I don&#039;t want to be anywhere near a pilot, crain operator or bus driver with a 104 fever, tweaked out on sinus pills and cough syrup.

Businesses are for profit but the cost of a legal, WC or liability claim or the cost of losing a large client&#039;s busness will have a direct impact on profits.  It is a calculated risk but it is still a risk.  Some risks are greater than others but depending on your business, there can be a significant financial risk.

Also, someone doesn&#039;t have to have H1N1 to be contageous.  Illness spreads through the office like wildfire when you have a cubicle farm.  I know I come to work more often than I should when I am ill but I can also work from home or close my office door and stay away from everyone.

So I disagree with your blanket statement that coming to work sick is always better than staying home for the profitibility of the business.  Someone should not stay home for every sniffle but if someone is genuinely ill and should stay in bed, I don&#039;t want them anywhere near me.

Patricia</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom, </p>
<p>Being present when very ill is not always better than staying home and there can be direct costs to a company when someone forces themselves to work when they are ill.  </p>
<p>First, you can physically be present but not productive.  I have been at work with the stomach flu and spent most of the day in the washroom.  The work I did had to be redone.  The business lost the work time when I was there ill and lost more of my time when I felt better and had to correct the mistakes I made when I was ill.</p>
<p>Secondly, you are much more likely to make mistakes because of illness and the medications you take to allow you to crawl to work.  If someone has a desk job, it depends on their level of responsibility as to how much a mistake could cost the company.  If someone does a more physical job, the safety issues are more tangible.  Dropping a plate of food on someone, getting into a car accident or using bad judgement on the production line can mean a hospital trip, a workers comp claim/liability claim or even death.  I don&#8217;t want to be anywhere near a pilot, crain operator or bus driver with a 104 fever, tweaked out on sinus pills and cough syrup.</p>
<p>Businesses are for profit but the cost of a legal, WC or liability claim or the cost of losing a large client&#8217;s busness will have a direct impact on profits.  It is a calculated risk but it is still a risk.  Some risks are greater than others but depending on your business, there can be a significant financial risk.</p>
<p>Also, someone doesn&#8217;t have to have H1N1 to be contageous.  Illness spreads through the office like wildfire when you have a cubicle farm.  I know I come to work more often than I should when I am ill but I can also work from home or close my office door and stay away from everyone.</p>
<p>So I disagree with your blanket statement that coming to work sick is always better than staying home for the profitibility of the business.  Someone should not stay home for every sniffle but if someone is genuinely ill and should stay in bed, I don&#8217;t want them anywhere near me.</p>
<p>Patricia</p>
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		<title>By: Lou</title>
		<link>http://www.hrmorning.com/presenteeism-does-it-really-hurt-the-bottom-line/comment-page-1/#comment-25147</link>
		<dc:creator>Lou</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 03:38:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hrmorning.com/?p=4513#comment-25147</guid>
		<description>My company does not pay for ANY sick time.  Not present - no $$ so I drag myself in no matter what shape I am in.  Don&#039;t like exposing co-workers especially since I don&#039;t appreciate co-workers who come in while ailing but....... if the company cared at all - they would offer some paid sick days.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My company does not pay for ANY sick time.  Not present &#8211; no $$ so I drag myself in no matter what shape I am in.  Don&#8217;t like exposing co-workers especially since I don&#8217;t appreciate co-workers who come in while ailing but&#8230;&#8230;. if the company cared at all &#8211; they would offer some paid sick days.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.hrmorning.com/presenteeism-does-it-really-hurt-the-bottom-line/comment-page-1/#comment-25102</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 15:36:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hrmorning.com/?p=4513#comment-25102</guid>
		<description>No, presenteeism does not effect the bottom line ... when just answering the question ...  being present is better than being absent ... Something is better than nothing. The company pays either way. 

&quot;Presenteeism&quot; as it relates to H1N1 is not acceptable. If deseases can affect others then stay at home.

&quot;Poor health and/or chronic conditions&quot; is a totally different subject. Again, either employees are at work or they are not. Don&#039;t confuse the &quot;health&quot; issue with the demands and requirements of the job. Companys are not welfare states and are &quot;for profit&quot;.  They have to be to pay for the costs of benefits.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, presenteeism does not effect the bottom line &#8230; when just answering the question &#8230;  being present is better than being absent &#8230; Something is better than nothing. The company pays either way. </p>
<p>&#8220;Presenteeism&#8221; as it relates to H1N1 is not acceptable. If deseases can affect others then stay at home.</p>
<p>&#8220;Poor health and/or chronic conditions&#8221; is a totally different subject. Again, either employees are at work or they are not. Don&#8217;t confuse the &#8220;health&#8221; issue with the demands and requirements of the job. Companys are not welfare states and are &#8220;for profit&#8221;.  They have to be to pay for the costs of benefits.</p>
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		<title>By: R. B.</title>
		<link>http://www.hrmorning.com/presenteeism-does-it-really-hurt-the-bottom-line/comment-page-1/#comment-25019</link>
		<dc:creator>R. B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 18:56:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hrmorning.com/?p=4513#comment-25019</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t get a feel from the article just exactly how it costs the organization so much money when employees come to work while they are sick.  I agree that it does, but I was hoping for some quantitative fact and details to support this supposition.  Several of our executives put a great deal of pressure on employees to come to work when they are ill and I was hoping for something that would show them how this negatively impacts the bottom line.  Unfortunately, I didn&#039;t get that information.

Regarding the separate issue about chronic health issues, I firmly believe offering preventative care is the best course of action to take to make a dent in this expensive trend.  The reason many people don&#039;t get help is because it is financially out of reach since their problem is not covered by insurance.  Obesity is a perfect example of this.  Do we help obese employees lose weight and thus probably change their health outcome or do we pay for the major health issues that typically develop over time when a person is obese?  Depression and anxiety, if left untreated, get worse and more difficult to treat and have a very negative impact on overall physical health when not addressed.  If adequate treatment is provided initially, before these problems become &quot;set in concrete,&quot; additional related problems can be avoided and extensive treatment down the road can be circumvented.  Mental health issues take a heavy toll on the body, as does stress, and they eventually have physical manifestations.  But since preventative care is often not covered, particularly if that care involves something that pertains to mental health or &quot;willpower&quot; and choices (your thought processes), people go untreated and reap significant health issues at some point in time.  Unfortunately, there is a prevailing feeling that a person who needs assistance with mental health issues is defective because they need help with things that the &quot;normal&quot; person doesn&#039;t.  The shame plus the financial cost for uncovered treatment cause them to avoid assistance until medical problems that can&#039;t be ignored finally develop.  Offering preventative care for both physical and mental / emotional conditions early on could significantly change the individual&#039;s overall health picture.  I would rather pay up front and provide the coverage to give employees the help they need early on because I believe this is a smart investment in the future of the organization...it will significantly reduce major claim costs down the road.  And I believe data from various studies is bearing this out.

Some conditions are genetic and are not avoidable.  We should never discriminate against a person because they face health challenges others don&#039;t (yet?) face.  Next year, you may be the person who has a heart attack before you’re 50, even though you eat healthy foods and exercise, or who has lung cancer even though you&#039;ve never smoked and haven&#039;t regularly been around second-hand smoke.   Basically, I don&#039;t think we should penalize employees who have health problems, but rather should provide viable coverage early on so they can obtain assistance before a condition becomes a major chronic health issue, provide information, resources and education so they can make educated decisions and then reward healthy choices.  I don&#039;t have all the answers, that&#039;s for certain!  But I do think this approach would have a positive impact long term.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t get a feel from the article just exactly how it costs the organization so much money when employees come to work while they are sick.  I agree that it does, but I was hoping for some quantitative fact and details to support this supposition.  Several of our executives put a great deal of pressure on employees to come to work when they are ill and I was hoping for something that would show them how this negatively impacts the bottom line.  Unfortunately, I didn&#8217;t get that information.</p>
<p>Regarding the separate issue about chronic health issues, I firmly believe offering preventative care is the best course of action to take to make a dent in this expensive trend.  The reason many people don&#8217;t get help is because it is financially out of reach since their problem is not covered by insurance.  Obesity is a perfect example of this.  Do we help obese employees lose weight and thus probably change their health outcome or do we pay for the major health issues that typically develop over time when a person is obese?  Depression and anxiety, if left untreated, get worse and more difficult to treat and have a very negative impact on overall physical health when not addressed.  If adequate treatment is provided initially, before these problems become &#8220;set in concrete,&#8221; additional related problems can be avoided and extensive treatment down the road can be circumvented.  Mental health issues take a heavy toll on the body, as does stress, and they eventually have physical manifestations.  But since preventative care is often not covered, particularly if that care involves something that pertains to mental health or &#8220;willpower&#8221; and choices (your thought processes), people go untreated and reap significant health issues at some point in time.  Unfortunately, there is a prevailing feeling that a person who needs assistance with mental health issues is defective because they need help with things that the &#8220;normal&#8221; person doesn&#8217;t.  The shame plus the financial cost for uncovered treatment cause them to avoid assistance until medical problems that can&#8217;t be ignored finally develop.  Offering preventative care for both physical and mental / emotional conditions early on could significantly change the individual&#8217;s overall health picture.  I would rather pay up front and provide the coverage to give employees the help they need early on because I believe this is a smart investment in the future of the organization&#8230;it will significantly reduce major claim costs down the road.  And I believe data from various studies is bearing this out.</p>
<p>Some conditions are genetic and are not avoidable.  We should never discriminate against a person because they face health challenges others don&#8217;t (yet?) face.  Next year, you may be the person who has a heart attack before you’re 50, even though you eat healthy foods and exercise, or who has lung cancer even though you&#8217;ve never smoked and haven&#8217;t regularly been around second-hand smoke.   Basically, I don&#8217;t think we should penalize employees who have health problems, but rather should provide viable coverage early on so they can obtain assistance before a condition becomes a major chronic health issue, provide information, resources and education so they can make educated decisions and then reward healthy choices.  I don&#8217;t have all the answers, that&#8217;s for certain!  But I do think this approach would have a positive impact long term.</p>
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		<title>By: Essie</title>
		<link>http://www.hrmorning.com/presenteeism-does-it-really-hurt-the-bottom-line/comment-page-1/#comment-25014</link>
		<dc:creator>Essie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 18:29:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hrmorning.com/?p=4513#comment-25014</guid>
		<description>Now I&#039;m anxious about my trips to a mental health consultant!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now I&#8217;m anxious about my trips to a mental health consultant!</p>
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		<title>By: cagefighter</title>
		<link>http://www.hrmorning.com/presenteeism-does-it-really-hurt-the-bottom-line/comment-page-1/#comment-25012</link>
		<dc:creator>cagefighter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 17:29:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hrmorning.com/?p=4513#comment-25012</guid>
		<description>The comments early on got a little off the Presenteeism track but keep in mind that it is NOT your employer&#039;s job to keep you healthy or even to offer you insurance.  If they do, be happy about it and you had better hope they are doing all they can to keep costs down for EVERYONE.  If that includes &quot;profiling&quot; so be it. Alot of employees have no idea where the money comes from that pays their doctors&#039; bills.  There is no insurance fairy folks - as pointed out - in the case of self-insurance employers, they write the checks.  That means they have less money for raises, expansion, etc.  So as employees we should be doing everything we can to keep ourselves healthy. Pointing a finger at your employer demonstrates a lack of understanding. If employers start acting as charities, we&#039;d all be out of jobs.

But I think the point of the article was that allowing people to work while sick creates a greater loss to the organization that just having the employee stay home due to mistakes made and sickening their coworkers. But the article really isn&#039;t talking about people with the flu when it starts discussing big money - its talking about chronic issues.  So I&#039;m still unclear on what the message really is.  I get that sick employees cost money.  Does that about sum it up?  I didn&#039;t see any eye-opening information there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The comments early on got a little off the Presenteeism track but keep in mind that it is NOT your employer&#8217;s job to keep you healthy or even to offer you insurance.  If they do, be happy about it and you had better hope they are doing all they can to keep costs down for EVERYONE.  If that includes &#8220;profiling&#8221; so be it. Alot of employees have no idea where the money comes from that pays their doctors&#8217; bills.  There is no insurance fairy folks &#8211; as pointed out &#8211; in the case of self-insurance employers, they write the checks.  That means they have less money for raises, expansion, etc.  So as employees we should be doing everything we can to keep ourselves healthy. Pointing a finger at your employer demonstrates a lack of understanding. If employers start acting as charities, we&#8217;d all be out of jobs.</p>
<p>But I think the point of the article was that allowing people to work while sick creates a greater loss to the organization that just having the employee stay home due to mistakes made and sickening their coworkers. But the article really isn&#8217;t talking about people with the flu when it starts discussing big money &#8211; its talking about chronic issues.  So I&#8217;m still unclear on what the message really is.  I get that sick employees cost money.  Does that about sum it up?  I didn&#8217;t see any eye-opening information there.</p>
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		<title>By: D Barry</title>
		<link>http://www.hrmorning.com/presenteeism-does-it-really-hurt-the-bottom-line/comment-page-1/#comment-24995</link>
		<dc:creator>D Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 15:24:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hrmorning.com/?p=4513#comment-24995</guid>
		<description>Jojo, your skepticism maybe well founded but your knowledge of industry is obviously limited.  I point you to the R.W. Beckett Corp of North Ridgeville, Ohio   They have been a leading manufacturer of oil burner furnace parts since 1937.  Their &quot;care and concern&quot; for hundreds of employees should be the model for all businesses.  For example, in educational assistance, many companies fund programs that will bring payback to the employer (accounting, engineering, sales, etc). How many industrials do you know whose commitment to developing people to their fullest potential included midwifery?  Recommend you check them out and their CEO John D. Beckett and find out why

If all you ever work with are scammers, cheaters, liars and self serving greedy folks you may assume that is how everyone is.  But America has a lot of folks who follow the original &quot;Golden Rule&quot; to the best of their ability and resource.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jojo, your skepticism maybe well founded but your knowledge of industry is obviously limited.  I point you to the R.W. Beckett Corp of North Ridgeville, Ohio   They have been a leading manufacturer of oil burner furnace parts since 1937.  Their &#8220;care and concern&#8221; for hundreds of employees should be the model for all businesses.  For example, in educational assistance, many companies fund programs that will bring payback to the employer (accounting, engineering, sales, etc). How many industrials do you know whose commitment to developing people to their fullest potential included midwifery?  Recommend you check them out and their CEO John D. Beckett and find out why</p>
<p>If all you ever work with are scammers, cheaters, liars and self serving greedy folks you may assume that is how everyone is.  But America has a lot of folks who follow the original &#8220;Golden Rule&#8221; to the best of their ability and resource.</p>
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		<title>By: Cindy</title>
		<link>http://www.hrmorning.com/presenteeism-does-it-really-hurt-the-bottom-line/comment-page-1/#comment-24993</link>
		<dc:creator>Cindy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 15:08:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hrmorning.com/?p=4513#comment-24993</guid>
		<description>I agree with T.C.  I used to weigh 312 and was at the doctor a couple times a month, not to mention the chiropractor and the depression meds, you name it.  But most insurance will not pay to help an overwieght person lose weight so they continue to be dollared to death with the other issues.  And just to show that it does make a difference, I was lucky enough to get an insurance company that paid for a gastric bypass.  Since I have lost 145 pounds I go to the doctor once a year for my annual.  From what I can see of our company benefits it is these small issues that add up.  We have only had a handful of serious sicknesses but we have numerous employees that continually see doctors for minor things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with T.C.  I used to weigh 312 and was at the doctor a couple times a month, not to mention the chiropractor and the depression meds, you name it.  But most insurance will not pay to help an overwieght person lose weight so they continue to be dollared to death with the other issues.  And just to show that it does make a difference, I was lucky enough to get an insurance company that paid for a gastric bypass.  Since I have lost 145 pounds I go to the doctor once a year for my annual.  From what I can see of our company benefits it is these small issues that add up.  We have only had a handful of serious sicknesses but we have numerous employees that continually see doctors for minor things.</p>
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		<title>By: T.C.</title>
		<link>http://www.hrmorning.com/presenteeism-does-it-really-hurt-the-bottom-line/comment-page-1/#comment-24987</link>
		<dc:creator>T.C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 14:36:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hrmorning.com/?p=4513#comment-24987</guid>
		<description>I think a major part of the problem is the medical profession itself. THe doctors treat the symtoms not the cause. I have high blood pressure, high colesterol, and heading towards sugar problems. I have had several injuries over the years due to my profession that prevent me from doing a lot of exercise. The fact that I am over weight at this time is the main contributing factor. But can I get a doc to deal with thaqt issue. Nope!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think a major part of the problem is the medical profession itself. THe doctors treat the symtoms not the cause. I have high blood pressure, high colesterol, and heading towards sugar problems. I have had several injuries over the years due to my profession that prevent me from doing a lot of exercise. The fact that I am over weight at this time is the main contributing factor. But can I get a doc to deal with thaqt issue. Nope!</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.hrmorning.com/presenteeism-does-it-really-hurt-the-bottom-line/comment-page-1/#comment-24986</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 14:19:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hrmorning.com/?p=4513#comment-24986</guid>
		<description>We tell employees to stay home if they are sick because we don&#039;t want them to spread their illness (Swine Flu), but by this time of the year, employees have used up most if not all of their vacation (PTO) time and if they were to stay home, they don&#039;t get paid. So we need something creative to combat the employee feeling hey haave to come to work so they can get paid.  Rolling bank time (PTO) is a solution, as is allowing employees to borrow from the next year&#039;s time, but limit it to only times of illness and to no more than  a set amount of time.

I am making a distinction here between minor sickness such as the flu, versus debilitating illness such as cancer, that a company&#039;s STD and LTD may well provide for in coverage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We tell employees to stay home if they are sick because we don&#8217;t want them to spread their illness (Swine Flu), but by this time of the year, employees have used up most if not all of their vacation (PTO) time and if they were to stay home, they don&#8217;t get paid. So we need something creative to combat the employee feeling hey haave to come to work so they can get paid.  Rolling bank time (PTO) is a solution, as is allowing employees to borrow from the next year&#8217;s time, but limit it to only times of illness and to no more than  a set amount of time.</p>
<p>I am making a distinction here between minor sickness such as the flu, versus debilitating illness such as cancer, that a company&#8217;s STD and LTD may well provide for in coverage.</p>
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