Ready or not, here comes healthcare reform
May 15, 2009 by Jim GiulianoPosted in: Health care, Money, Special Report, policies
President Obama vowed that he and Congressional Democrats will push through a healthcare bill by summer.
First, the President and Congressional leaders say the overall point of the legislation is to create a public healthcare system that covers 46 million uninsured Americans. Early volleys and opposition from Republicans center on:
- a stipulation that would cap the employer tax deduction for providing employee insurance
- how the system will be funded and how much it will increase the deficit
- whether such a system would undermine the traditional private system of insurance and care
Who’ll pay for it?
How to pay for the estimated $1.5-trillion cost over 10 years? Congressional estimates point out that the tax exemption for benefits annually costs the government between $246 billion $297 billion — money that could be used to fund a government-run program.
Most proposals, however, don’t call for completely doing away with the tax exemption, but rather limiting it, a move that could raise $700 billion over 10 years, according to consultants from the Lewin Group.
On top of limiting tax deductions for employers and employees, among the proposals floating around Capitol Hill are plans to raise taxes on alcohol, soft drinks and foods high in fat and salt. Health advocates in Congress are saying that’ll create a double benefit of raising money and encouraging better eating habits.
Congressional leaders say they’ll hammer out a bill by July and get action on it before the August recess. The goal: to have a final plan effective Jan. 1.
The full proposal from Congress is summarized in a report authored by Sen. Max Baucus (D-MT), Chair of the Senate Finance Committee.
Tags: Baucus, healthcare, obama
May 18th, 2009 at 9:38 am
Oh good grief! “On top of limiting tax deductions for employers and employees, among the proposals floating around Capitol Hill are plans to raise taxes on alcohol, soft drinks and foods high in fat and salt. Health advocates in Congress are saying that’ll create a double benefit of raising money and encouraging better eating habits.” This is the most ridiculous thing yet! Next they will be trying to tell us what to wear, what to watch on television, what kind of car to buy………
May 18th, 2009 at 10:19 am
It’s socialism at its best; I hope the starry-eyed liberals that elected the sitting President soon recognize what a mistake they’ve made. It falls into the category “I didn’t know it was loaded.”
May 18th, 2009 at 10:32 am
I have immediate family members at home who are self-employed, over 18, but, no health insurance. Why can’t I cover them on my health insurance plan? What difference does it make about a family member’s age?
May 18th, 2009 at 10:32 am
Is anyone other than me tired of the government invasion into their private lives?
May 18th, 2009 at 10:41 am
I couldn’t agree with JV & Jim more! It’s definitely socialism, and it will be our children that will pay ultimately. I can’t believe what it has come to…it’s insane!
May 18th, 2009 at 10:49 am
High fat and high salt foods? How would this affect restaurants? Does this mean a premium would be placed on pure-fat items such as Queso at Trudy’s? An end to dollar menus at fast food places?
May 18th, 2009 at 10:50 am
Let’s just pray that not too much damage will be done before it’s over. Unfortunately, I will be the first person to admit that we ended up with this administration because the Bush/Cheney administration was so deplorable – it’s the legacy that Bush truly left us with.
May 18th, 2009 at 10:53 am
When the govermwent shuts down Pepsi and Coca Cola (among others) how many more jobless will there be?!!
What will they do when that tax base is squeezed to absolute death and disappears?
Soon we’ll be taxed to death on the water we get from our taps – just as soon as they shut down most other beverage choices.
May 18th, 2009 at 11:00 am
Dear B,
If your family members choose to be self employed, why should your employer foot the bill for your family members lack of personal planning. Rarely does any employer in the past 10 years still pay 100% of the benefit, but they do pay for a significant share plus all the administration of the plan(s).
I have 4 adult children – 1 self employed purchased his own plan, 2 with private employers and both pay a portion of their plans, and the 4th career US Army, and he has to pay a portion of his medical care.
Why do so many people want the right to choose their lifestyle but do not want to foot the bill for their own personal, uncoerced decisions. Ideally, if and when we develop socialized national health care, they will make wellness mandatory and if you do not comply you will be imprisoned to ensure you make the right choices.
I will have some respect for Government officials when they MUST follow the same rules they vote for, including going to whatever plan they have in mind.
May 18th, 2009 at 11:00 am
Opponents of the new healthcare initiative need to focus on the downgrade of all medical care and reduced accessibility to life-saving/extending technologies & timely care that will be brought about by the change if they truly want people to listen. As soon as people realize (reps and dems) that they will be sacrificing their own quality of care under the new plan, you will get their attention. the tax argument didn’t work in the Presidential election, & it may fall on deaf ears now as well. But, threaten people’s ability to obtain the high-level of treatment to which they have become accustomed, and the tide may change.
May 18th, 2009 at 11:02 am
Jim, why do you let the liberals brainwash you into the hate Bush syndrome. Sure, he wasn’t perfect by a long shot, but anyone with an eye on Obama’s (lack of) credentials would not have voted for him. Too many liberals, independents and republicans had their heads in the sand. Now, for Health Care. The only REAL change that needs to be made is to individualize health care. Take it out of the Employer’s hands. No need to disrupt ones health care every time he changes jobs. In the olden days, a person went to work for a company, and 9 times out of 10, stayed with that company all his life. That is no longer the case. Health Care policies need to be owned and controlled by the family, not the Employer. This would not only drive the price down, but provide those who want it with continuous health care that they can understand because they bought it themselves, and gain control over their families medical needs.
May 18th, 2009 at 11:09 am
Why are cigarettes the price they are? When I was a kid they were 25 cents a pack. Did trying to discorage people from smoking have anything to do with the ever increasing cost of cigarettes, or is because tobacco has gone up so much in price????? Maybe my remarks here may not seem connected to the topic about taxing fatty and high salt foods, but in my mind I can’t help but think there might be. Anyway, I am taking a chance and throwing my thoughts out there.
May 18th, 2009 at 11:11 am
Joyce, individualized health care planning sounds good but most people would not know what to do. If it is required by law, many still won’t purchase – it hasn ‘t worked for automobile insurance and won’t for medical for the same human reasons.
Anothe part is affordability – there is something to be said about group insurance and keeping rates at a reasonable level (well sometimes) based on cost sharing.
Folks, Please don’t blame Bush for lack of medical care – the Clinton’s made it a priority in 1993 and didn’t get it done in 8 years either!
May 18th, 2009 at 11:18 am
Harold – Save the condescending comment. Mine are just starting out, juggling college and work. What an employment perk it would be if my idea was pursued!
May 18th, 2009 at 11:27 am
I haven’t heard yet about what Obama’s insurance plan will be like. It should come with a really high deductible, and a high co-pay, since that is what most of the working class can afford. Why hand out a “cadillac” insurance plan, if most of us can only afford the basic.
May 18th, 2009 at 11:33 am
Since the benefits will become taxable, does that mean employers will offset the additional tax with more salary (also taxable?). Seems to me that the number of people in D.C. who have recently discovered old tax liabilities won’t want to pay more for their very rich benefits either or will they be exempt? There are many people who could be insured but choose not to becuase they have other priorities. Responsibility for one’s self and one’s choices is a virtue which is no longer valued and respected.
May 18th, 2009 at 11:36 am
So no tax deduction means employers not offering insurance, and therefore less tax revenue to fund this program. Makes perfect sense…
May 18th, 2009 at 11:39 am
B Can’t they go on your insurance as under 30 care? They will have thier own plan and are billed seperate it costs less than it would if they had to get a private plan.
May 18th, 2009 at 11:48 am
Employers would not “foot the bill” for dependent care coverage unless it is their policy to pay for dependent coverage; as we know, most do not or could change their policy to include over-age dependents. In any event, the cost for coverage is lower for 25-30 year olds as opposed to younger children. It would not make a differenct to the employer.
May 18th, 2009 at 11:50 am
Joyce – wasnt’ meant to be condescending. I fully understand juggling school and work. I agree it would be a tremendous perk if affordable. There were some companies that offered coverage for children up to 28 regardless of school and such, but no longer support that policy.
It scares the heck out of me for any of my family to be without medical insurance as they surely need it and must use it a lot.
I am sure if our company could provide it we would incrase our enrollment by 30%.
Best of luck!
May 18th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Sorry, I guess I am from the old school where people were responsible for themselves. Health insurance is different than auto insurance. More times than not, with auto insurance, you are insuring yourself against damage you do to someone else. With Health Care you are insuring your family against financial ruin if a health problem attacks you or them. It does not have to be mandated by the Government, and shouldn’t be. Not Government’s responsibility. It is your responsibility and if you sherk your responsibility, then you suffer the consequences. Which in this case would be State and Federally funded programs, such as Assess to bail you out. But why should all of us who do act responsibily, have to give up our freedoms because others (a very small %- and growing due to unwise entitlements) do not have their own Health Insurance. I am AGAINST big government. When a Governmnet gets big enough to give you everything you want, it is BIG ENOUGH to take everything you have. NO THANKS.
May 18th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
It’s about time! The people will have a say in cost of health care and what we see as appropriate to pay. This is why I elect representation. As it is, the government probably pays, without negotiation rights, probably 75% of health care. We cover Medicare and Med Assistance, Federal, State and Municiplal employees in employment and throughout retirement. The government (local, state and federal) pay HUGE amounts to contractors for the jobs they do which would include the cost of health care for the employees they have (Raytheon, GE, Boing, software companies, road makers and building contractors, etc. etc, etc.). We pay for Veterans health care and all active soldiers.
With every gallon of gas/oil we pay the health costs of their employees; with each electric bill and telephone bill.
It is time for the people to be fully involved in this matter and not simply pay what the medical industry demands.
May 18th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
Sometimes I feel penalized for working and providing for myself. Donna, you are not the only one who is tired of the government invasion into their private lives.
May 18th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Joyce,
The liberals didn’t brainwash me, I simply was thoroughly disappointed in how the last administration botched so many opportunities, alienated our youth and essentially handed the election to Obama. Unfortunately, I blame most of it on Cheney and his arrogance.
May 18th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Karen –
Do you really think you will have a say in costs? The government bureaucracy that will be created to oversee this program will likely costs in the tens of millions each year. Not to mention they will create an advisory panel that will discuss if you really need the treatment that your doctor is asking to be able to provide to you.
The old and the terminally ill will see the government take away all care – too much cost with no positive end result for a productive member of society. Euthanasia? Maybe not – but maybe.
May 18th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
My blood pressure goes through the roof every time I read about National Healthcare and how it will solve the nation’s crisis. That is simply untrue. Yes, it will insure 46 million people (10 million who are illegally here), but since this reform will not include tort reform doctors will continue to over prescribe drugs and services to avoid lawsuits. State mandates will be very much alive which significantly contribute to the cost of fully insured employer sponsored plans. And the icing on the cake (pardon the pun) is you cannot legislate behavior. Meaning, the government (as much as it may want to) cannot mandate that you stop eating fast food and get off your bottom and exercise. The cost of laziness and convenience in America is a very large contributing factor to the rising cost of healthcare. I see this in my companies claims costs. The cost of heart disease is through the roof due in large part to poor diet and lack of exercise.
Additionally, the government is grossly underestimating how much this will cost. The fact that my two diet cokes a day will be taxed to pay for someone else’s healthcare is just down right frustrating. But it’s coming and there is nothing you or I can do about it. If the democrats don’t pass this now they will be waiting for another 8 years and possibly longer. This is certainly change…
May 18th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
Have you all personally written to or tried calling President Obama. It seems like many of you think we are on the fast road to disaster under this administration. Hard to believe that the road to disaster could be any longer than the road that the previous administration had us on.
May 18th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
M –
If you do NOT stop looking in the rear view mirror, you WILL have a head-on collision.
May 18th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
I completely agree with Joyce. Take it out of the employers hands…and that’s exactly what our company decided to do. Our group rates for insurance went up 30% this year. We got rid of our group health and implmented an HRA to help fund the health insurance, but all employees who want coverage are going to have to get it on their own or through their spouse. We are saving the company money as well as our employees by doing this. And we have saved enough money we can help out those who are being rated up due to age and health. I think it’s going to be the future of health care…no more COBRA this way too!
I also firmly believe too much government is never a good thing!
May 18th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Kendra;
Your company’s practice now simply shifts the burden to another employer (unfair) or to families who must decide what they can afford, which is usually inexpensive and a low level of coverage. This is why 50% of indivuidual bankruptcies are caused by health care costs and a large number of those have coverage, they just fall to serious illness and big co-pays. We are eating our young with current acceptance of whatever the health industry dishes out!
Who else has the authority or power to regulate such an industry but your elected representatives. And in regard to comments about excessive government employee costs, you’ve not yet seen a gov bureaucrat receiving millions in annual pay or millions in “golden handshakes” or receiving bonuses for getting more money from citizens.
May 18th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
People like Kendra do not want the responsibility to make decisions for themselves and then live with those choices.
They want the government to be their mothers -
May 18th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
Kendra
My company got hit with 30% rate increase for 2009. Do you mind sharing some of what your company does as far as helping those having difficulty getting insurance due to age or health?
I can see company savings but how does the employee save money?
Your experience would be of help to me, as I see 2009 renewals being difficult.
And yes – too much government is not a good thing. Thank you.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
Karen -
Government bureaucrats do not get paid millions because they have no risk – and work many, many less hours than the million dollar execs do.
Plus you must have missed the big story in Milwaukee where a county exec received a 2 million dollar back drop payment. He gave it back only becuase he feared serious retribution. Thousands of Milw. County workers are refusing to give back the back drop money and are receiving 6 figure checks when the retire.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
I’ve always wondered why Obama doesn’t go after the pharmecutical companys and the medical industry, making them be accountable for overcharging. They are the real cause of the cost of insurance being what it is today.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
Dawn –
It is not the pharm companies driving up costs.
It is the obese, sedentary, abysmal diet individuals in this country. We are the fattest nation on the planet and have the highest healthcare costs – the states with the fattest populations are facing the fastest increases.
Does no one see the correlation?
If it is so lucrative to discover new medications then I would advise that you start a pharmaceutical company and realize that easy money.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
Harold I would love to have a side conversation with you about our changes. Send an e-mail to krbayer@hotmail.com to have the conversation – we can set up a call.
Ed – I said I didn’t want more government…how does that correlate into wanting government to be my mother? We are giving responsibility back to our employees when it comes to their health care and are having a great response actually. Most are saving more money this way and are getting the same or better coverage than they had before.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
In the Rx business pricing has just gone bizarre.
Insulin at WalGreen’s (Louisville, KY) is $42 a vile. The same insulin at Wal Mart is $10.00. This is from a friend that is a diabetic. My dog is a diabetic, uses the same insulin as my friend and I pay $52 per vile (can’t get my puppy on my medical plan:)
WalMart, K Mart and Kroger’s (Dillon’s in the midwest) have similar discounts with $4.00 generic Rx’s.
We do seem to have a Rx about every corner that a bank chain is established.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
Ed,
Interesting about Milw. As I recall, didn’t the citizens of Milwauke and Wisconsin elect the former Mayor of Milwauke to the US Senate or House (Republican I believe)?
May 18th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
I’m not talking so much about perscriptions and refills, but about the drugs given to you while in the hospital, test they have to run, and the costs of medical proceedures, etc. Charging you $10 for one tylonal, etc.
Pharm companies are in it for the profit – they admitted it on an episode 20/20. They went on to explain why they paid off a generic company, to prevent them from putting on the market the one of their $100 a pill drugs for only $20 a month, saying they are out for the money, the same as any other business is.
But if you want to compare over the counter prescriptions, as a doctor why they only prescribe the drugs that cost the most, when there are alot of low cost items they can prescribe, like sinus rinses ($1 a bottle, which lasts forever) instead of a $40 perscription, or “plenty of liquids and rest”. How many time have you left a doctor’s office without a perscription? Most do it for the kickbacks.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
Kendra – sorry – I missread your comment.
Karen – No he was not elected to any other position. The former Mayor Norquist (Democrat) left after a sex scandle and is a yo Joe citizan now.
The former Exec Tom Ament (Democrat) is also no longer in politics after trying to make himself a millionaire on my and other tax payer dollars.
The (Democrat) Mike McGee Jr. that orchastrated bribes and extorted money from local business for liquor license rights is in jail on State and Federal charges and the morons (highly Democrat) of Milwaukee elected him while he was in jail. He is now out of office since he was convicted and found guilty. The Milwaukee Democrats are now as dirty as the Chicago Dems – i.e. Blagojevich.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
Supposedly Michael Moores’ next film will be zeroing in on the pharmaceutical companies. Hopefully, it will be as factual and informative as Fahrenhite 911.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
Yeah – that was full of fact. OH LORD PLEASE!!!!
If it is closer to sicko – then maybe -
May 18th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
I think taxing cigarettes, alcohol and fast food more is brilliant! Why not? These are pointless, unhealthy addictions.
I want a healthy, happy country and I’m proud of the current administration for making your health a priority…because all companies like Coke, McDonald’s, Phillip Morris or Smirnoff care about is their bottom line. Where’s everyone’s criticism of their motives?
Consumers drive the descisions these corporations make and if the government can help push people away from these unhealthy choices (key word “choice,” you still have one) and it forces the corporations to change so that they can avoid taxation and have a better reputation for consumer health…again, why not?
May 18th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
Now Ed is really getting personal:)
While part of what he states is true I have seen the majority of very costly medical cases that push my company’s premiums through the roof are cancer and diseases related to rheumatoid arthritis (lupus, autoimmune diseass, etc.). Neither directly related to being obese or dietary in nature. But these very expensive treatments save lives and make lifestyles possible that did not exist just a few years ago.
In doing some reading on comparisons of USA health care and cost compared to England/Canada/European healthcare – you are correct in there cost numbers show they have a cheaper delivery system, but the product they deliver is very limited.
There are few reports by these countries to indicate the level of mortality due to withholding costly treatment or delaying treatment. It would make socialized medicine look, well “socialized” in the Karl Marx way.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
KJ –
Are you nuts?! Big brother has no business telling me what I can eat or drink or legislating that in any way shape or form.
Anyone knows that to create a healthiwer environment people must want it- you cannot force it on them.
Even though people in China are legally only allowed one child and are severly punished for unauthorized pregnancies – they still do it (no pun intended) regardless of the law.
In order for success people have to WANT to make the change. Many people will do the opposite of what they are told to do. I have quit drinking caffinated beverages becuase I wanted to – it has been 142 days. Now I am weaning myself off of carbonated beverages entirely – but because I want to – not because anyone is telling me to.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
KJ
If taxing alcohol, cigarettes and fast food is the way to raise money, why is it that in countries with socialized medicine are still the USA’s biggest customer for our tobacco, alcohol and love our fast food.
Check out the latest safety ratings on the small, “green” cars, and you can expect a much higher fatality and injury rate – shouldn’t we tax those items also at a higher rate.
Unfortunately, the taxes they glean from these items will never reach the intended programs.
That is why I love Kentucky – great Bourbon, home of Yum Brands, Papa John’s Pizza, (don’t smoke but we have lost thousands of jobs with cigarette factories closings), fast horses and beautiful women! And all of these are addictive.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
Maybe it’s all the stress that is causing all our health problems…should we be taxed on that? I think some of these responses need to be taxed! By the way, I am lucky to drink on pop a week! Since everyone is sharing their pop intake. But I have a few cups of coffee everyday….
May 18th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
Ed, they aren’t telling you what to eat or drink. You still have the choice to eat and drink things that aren’t good for you…you just have to pay more to do it. We’re talking increased taxes on things that are not good for you, not making you a criminal for drinking a diet coke…
May 18th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
KJ –
YES they are telling us what to do by taxing it more than any normal tax rate for other foods and beverages.
Working overtime is bad for you – are they going to tax at a special extra high tax rate for any overtime hours.
Not exercising is worse than pop (Soda) or fast food is – are they going to tax those that do not exercise at higher rates than those that do exercise?
May 18th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
Working overtime is not always bad for you…I would love some overtime right about now! The article didn’t mention anything about taxing someone for not working out.
You’re jumping to weird hypothetical scenarios…
This is when I stop conversations such as these.
May 18th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
Call and email your Senators and Representatives. Let them know how your feel about this.
My association (National Association of Health Underwriters) is busy asking all health insurance brokers to be vocal. It is important for our sentators and representatives to hear from everyone on this!
Please make your thoughts and wishes known!
Rhonda
May 18th, 2009 at 4:33 pm
So many partisan responses that have nothing to do with the issue at hand. It is a long time until something is done so lets see what is offered and call or write your representative to make your views known. And those of you who think health care is a privilige are plain selfish and self-serving and uninformed about how the health care system in this country really works. People who don’t have insurance and can’t afford it, usually can’t afford doctor’s visits. They wait until they are VERY ill and go to the emergency room. Then it costs us (in tax dollars). Get real and get a conscience.
May 18th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
After it’s all said and done, this administration will make Bush look like the greatest pres ever. So much for change. Those of us who have health insurance will be paying for those who don’t through this new tax idea – how is this any different than right now? People without insurance still get care in circumstances when they need it, right? I have yet to see people dying in the streets in this country. Thanks all you hope and changers – FYI – change isn’t always good!
May 18th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
PATRICIA
AMEN
May 18th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
I know alot of people who go to the emergency room regularly for treatment, since they don’t want to go through the trouble of making a doctor’s appointment, etc. They are also on welfare, and don’t have to pay for the visit. Believe it or not, I have a niece who visits the emergency room regularly, I would say on a monthly basis, either for herself or one of her kids. And, never has to pay for it. Then, you have me, who goes to the doctor only once a year, and only because it’s time for my regular check up. It makes me sick, thinking of all the people who work hard to pay taxes, for people to abuse it in such a way. Not only do they take advantage of health care, but everything else they can get. I see it happening all the time….
May 18th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
Why is it that my daughter, who up until recently was a full time college student but for very serious reasons dropped out of school, is unable to get any decent affordable health insurance on her own. She did not qualify for Medicaid, but fortunately I can carry her under my coverage for a mere $500 a month!!! $500 a month out of my salary leaves me with very, and I mean very little money, for anything but the necessities of life. There are other people I know of who were laid off from their jobs last year, prior to the enactment of the COBRA subsidy, and they are without health insurance because of the astronomical cost of continuing COBRA coverage back then. These people did not qualify for Medicaid either, so they and many many more people go uninsured. If I lose my job, both my daughter and I MIGHT just MIGHT be able to afford health insurance thanks to the new COBRA subsidy.
May 19th, 2009 at 9:16 am
Gotta love people looking for excuses to use the “liberal” tag and predict the end of civilization as we know it because of the Administration’s health plans. First of all, we need to remember that we elect our Senators and Representatives who will have to support any plan before it can go into effect. This won’t happen by executive order. If you don’t like the way democracy works, please emigrate an d find some place where you can be happier and more free… if you can. Those of us who were anti-Bush certainly endured a lot for 8 years, but we realized that he was elected by our system of government. Yes, we complained and we used the “right-wing conservative” tag, but it was over things like going to war under false pretenses, alienating long-time allies, choosing big business over people, etc. By the way, I am a retired military former Republican.
Can you really fault President Obama for wanting to make America a healthier country? Don’t go into a panic about socialism, government intrusion, etc. Think about the levels of obesity, heart disease, cancer, high blood pressure, diabetes, etc. And while a majority of Americans can probably find an insurance plan that works for them, there are many people who are good people and who are productive, contributing members of our society who have to make choices like “Do I pay for my medication this month or do I buy healthy food for my kids?” Or “Can I afford to go the doctor for this infection or broken bone or do I just hope it heals on it’s own?” Americans as a whole are far too worried about their own little world and about how they may need to pay 5 cents more for 2 liters of Coke and don’t really care about anyone else. Sad…
May 19th, 2009 at 11:12 am
We need to get back to personal responsibility. People should take care of themselves or pay increased costs for their sedentary lifestyles. The employer-sponsored healthcare may not be the best system, but it is probably much more preferrable to any government-run program.
The idea of health savings accounts is a good approach. However, we need to consider creative ways to allow initial funding of these so that people don’t have to start with a zero balance. Health insurance should be just that, insurance. Do people draw on their car or house insurance 6 or 8 times per year for small routine, foreseeable things (e.g. routine oil change appointments, routine maintenance, etc)? Routine, minor medical appointments probably should be funded entirely by the patients (possibly out of an HSA or similar plan). Either that, or have high co-pays (e.g. 50%) so that patients will hopefully use risk-avoidance to take better care of themselves and also to select better practicioners who give better service for the cost. With low, flat dollar amount co-pays, the actual cost/benefit for the service is completely out of the mind of the user.
Health insurance should ideally be for those things that have extremely hight costs (e.g. catestrophic illnesses, surgeries, hospitalizations, or even long-term maintenance/drugs that exceed a high threshhold). Ordinary, expected, medical expenses (OTC drugs, routine doctor visits, etc) should be normal, living, expected, and planned-for expenses that are part of any normal budget. HSA-type accounts can be used (similar to escrow accounts for house insurance/taxes) to help smooth out these routine, expected expenses over time.
When I want my computer fixed, I shop around for not only who will do a good job repairing it, but also who has a reasonable price for the service. For some reason health care isn’t looked upon in the same manner as most areas in our life. People feel they should be entitled to cheap health care regardless of how they manage their lifestyle. If I drive my car without changing the oil regularly, or keeping small scratches/dents fixed, or fixing small window cracks, I shouldn’t expect big brother to step in and help me fund (with other people’s money) major repairs that are then required due to my negligence. Government-run programs should only be a safety-net for those who truly can not fend for themselves (e.g. disabled).
Ideally everybody would be able to shop for and purchase their own individual insurance based on their underlying risk factors. Those who (for no reason of their own… e.g. genetics, disability, etc) who are unable to qualify for individual plans could become part of a government-sponsored pool such as a lot of states require for high-risk drivers. Currently individual health insurance plans are often at higher prices due to the large group discount rates that employers can negotiate. If the health insurance market was opened up to this type of competition, over time the market would drive prices down and quality up. Also the market would eventually create ways for a consumer to know who can provide better service at the lower price (those who do this would definitely make it known to take a larger share of the market/profits).
Everybody has unique situations and concerns regarding the current way health insurance is handled or how it isn’t handled (if you and/or your loved ones don’t have any care or the level of care you’d like). The current system basically funds higher-risk individuals/groups at everybody’s expense through employer-sponsored group plans that charge everyone essentially the same rates. To keep rates somewhat reasonable for everybody, decisions are made what groups/dependants, etc to exclude, what procedures to exclude, etc across-the-board. Individualized plans would allow much more flexibility for any number of permutations based on family needs, but they would be priced accordingly to these options and based on risk.
Instead of going “cold turkey” and just starting to tax employer-sponsored plans out of the blue, the government would be wise to ease individuals and companies into more consumer-directed plans over the course of several years. Eliminating any government benefit or entitlement (starting to tax the employer-sponsored health plans would be taking away a tax benefit to employers which is passed along to the employee), is never an easy task so it would be best to develop a way to migrate employers and employees to a market-driven plan (that uses individual responsiblity to price in risk) that is somewhat financially neutral to most employers and employees in the end.
May 19th, 2009 at 11:25 am
Keith –
Now that is the best argument that I have seen on this website. I agree with what you are saying.
The only trouble comes in with when is is lifestyle and when is it genetics. Diabetes is a bit easier to discern – Type II or NIDDM is more life style and Type I IDDM is purely the opposite. But other conditions might be harder to prove.
May 19th, 2009 at 11:42 am
Keith has a very enlightened point of view on this issue. Many of us could follow that lead, including lawmakers. However, I think that Keith has not given enough weight to the power that insurance companies and their lobbyists hold in making sure that they can make the most profits possible, and in fighting any legislation that might improve things. Individuals do not have any power in negotiating rates and coverages; employers, depending on size, have some power but not much; only governments would have equal negotiating power to insurance companies – and that is why its necessary for our government to be involved in leveling the playing field. If done poorly it may make things worse, but if done properly it may improve things. Ranting that everything government does is wrong, only works in favor of the insurance companies that want to continue the status quo.
May 19th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
Spot on Keith! Your arguments are exactly why our company went to individual policies and did away from our group coverage…except that we are seeing the majority of the rates go down and our costs are being lowered. We did implement an HRA, so we still are helping them fund the plan, but it’s amazing how our employees are now looking at their health care in a different view when they see the entire premium and it’s completely up to them. Before they had no idea how much the total cost was. And personal insurance is much more competitive now than what it was a couple years ago. And your explanation was exactly how I explained it to our employees. Health insurance should be treated like car insurance and not an entitlement. I have health issues and I still think it should be treated this way – I use Flexible Spending to budget for my expenses – much like everyone else should (that can).
May 19th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
Kudo’s to Gordon.
He reminds us…We seem to trust business more than government (?). Wonder what happened with AIG and the finance industry!
May 19th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
AIG and the finance industry –
Greedy consumers took loans that they could not afford and thought that ARMs were a great idea. The government also pushed AIG and the financial industry to “help” consumers “better afford” homes.
May 19th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
Ed – Here we go again….the bad old government forced innocent little AIG to give loans to greedy poor people that couldn’t afford them. I think AIG and the rest of the self regulated financial industry can take their share of blame. And the “poor” people should be ashamed of themselves for wanting a piece of the American Dream. Right? And to get this post back on topic…shame on those poor people for wanting health care. Blame government, blame liberals, blame poor people. And conservatives should be commended for warning everyone to stop building houses and stop making loans (they were all over that right?). I, on the other hand think everyone had a hand in this mess. Oh but who’s getting the bailout?
May 19th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
Gordon –
I got a house I knew I could afford – teh bank wanted to give me a loan way higher than I knew I could afford. Instead of GRABBING at the loan – I went with something I knew I could afford. Now that my hours were cut due to the poor economy – I can still afford my home and I do not have to ask you to help pay for it!!!!!
If the banks don’t get bailed out – they will forclose on more of the homes – I do not agree with the bailouts for either the banks or the auto industry.
As for wanting a piece of the American Dream – it used to be work hard, take a risk and maybe you’ll reap a reward. Now the American Dream is I want it, I want it all and I want it now!
May 19th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
Wouldn’t it be nice if everyone agreed on everything? That’s one of the great things about America – we have the freedom to have our own opinion. Face it – you won’t change anyone’s opinion over a message board, and it’s futile to even think so. Most of us realized that along time ago…..
May 19th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
Discussions are not about convincing others of your point of view – they are to discuss varying points of view and sharing information.
May 19th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
It just amazes me at all the different discussions that in the end produce NOTHING. Just like our government. No-one has been willing to openly see what our government is doing. Stop blaming anyone or anything else and ask yourselves, who would you let treat you and all your family to come in the way that this administration is now doing? Has anyone stopped to ask what if……what if the nations who have funded us though our bail-outs wanted their money back NOW? We have already sold our country. People continue to complain but how many of the above have contacted their government officials? Don’t have time? Too much hassle? Soon and very soon, it is going to be too late. Just to think of the likely possibilities try reading “Late Great United States by Mark Hitchcock” but only bother if you can do so with an open mind.
May God bless us, if and when we turn from our selfish ways.
May 20th, 2009 at 8:50 am
I contact my government officials every election. Unless you are a large contributor to their campaign or a lobyist, that’s the ONLY time they can hear you.
May 20th, 2009 at 8:55 am
By the way, that’s what Dick Cheney said when asked if he felt he was doing the will of the people. He said the people have an opinion once every four years.
May 20th, 2009 at 10:47 am
Looks to me like a lot of you people have way to much time on your hands.
May 20th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
There is always a Faye in every discussion –
Faye – you must have a lot of time on your hands to post as well hey!!
Discussions can help foster a gain in knowledge – not always but they can do so. There is always time to learn something new or see other points of view in life.
May 20th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
Ed:
Amen
May 20th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
This discussion encouraged me to write to my representatives. Thanks for all the input.
May 21st, 2009 at 11:02 am
Instead of taxing foods and beverages that can be enjoyed and consumed resposibly, why not tax the problem itself? For every pound a person is overwieght, the higher the tax they must pay. Just have a scale at every registar, the cashiers will have a chart of standard wieght per hieght/age and tax accorddingly. Surely that will get people to behave the way Obama wants them to. Now thats a fat tax.
May 21st, 2009 at 11:19 am
That is assuming that overweight people are what the problem is. I just read an article that said “75 percent to 90 percent of all visits to primary care physicians are for stress-related complaints”. And a majority of the reasons people are admitted into the hospital have a root cause leading back to stress. Also, one of the main causes of over eating is “emotional” eating, brought on by various forms of stress, etc.
So maybe we need to monitor and tax everyone based on their stress level. And put a tax on any activities, or purchases, etc., that may lead to stress. And….we could elimate the tax on food, because they are now considered to be “stress relievers”, so could eliminate some of the stress related costs of visiting a doctor! Full circle, on this one!! Which one is the lessor of two evils? It could also elimiate the need to tax beer/alcohal/cigarettes, since those are stress relievers, too!
In my opinion, helping the economy getting back on it’s feet again could help alot of people with their stress / eating / drinking problems. But then again, they may have been that way before our problems began.
May 22nd, 2009 at 8:42 am
Jon
I was getting ready to write something about how bad the Obama administration is and how they have taken the US into ruins in just these few months into their 4 year term. Can’t imagine what the next 3 1/2 years will bring and where we will be!!!
However, when I was getting ready to type my comment, I also read what you wrote about taking overweight people. I’m overweight by about 40 pounds, although I’m not fat, just heavy – anyway – it isn’t because I overeat!!! I have a thyroid problem and cannot lose weight no matter how hard I try. As Dawn mentions – stress is also the problem for overweight people. I also have alot of stress on my job which also contributes to the lack of weight loss. Not just the fact of “emotional” eating, but the fact that stress causes different symptoms for each peron – meaning that some may lose hair, gain weight, lose sleep, have a nervous breakdown and so on.
The problem I have is with people that criticize others because of their appearance. What is your issue – bald, skinny, tall, short, wear glasses or contacts, a hearing aid? The list could go on and on – no one is perfect, you cannot penalize people because of their physical ability.
The only ones I think we should penalize are the ones that take advantage of the system – living off welfare and not trying to help themselves – if they cannot that is one thing, but I’ve seen too many able bodied people that won’t try because they will lose their food stamps or something free from the Government if they make any money on their own. Also, the imagrants that are taking our SS money and also receiving grants and benefits that we are paying for. That is where the problem is, not overweight people!!!!
May 22nd, 2009 at 8:49 am
Natalie Glad you were sidetracked from giving your opinion as to the direction the current Administration is taking us. The topic of this blog is to give opinions on health care reform, and not to hear your pious opinion of how the country is headed towards doom, which apparently is your misguided, and I would venture to say, ignorant attitude.
May 22nd, 2009 at 8:52 am
Zee –
Nice opinion about politics and personal attack against someone on a blog that is to foster discussion about healthcare reform.
May 22nd, 2009 at 8:55 am
Zee and Ed
I wasn’t the first one to post anything a little off the subject of health care reform.
However, part of my blog was in conjunction with health care – a response to someone stating that overweight people should pay additional fees for their healthcare (additional taxes).
I’m not the ignorant one – I wasn’t putting anyone down and would never directly offend anyone. Glad I don’t blog often. I have a “real” job to perform!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Get a life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
May 22nd, 2009 at 8:56 am
Natalie –
Try re-reading my post!!!!
May 22nd, 2009 at 9:07 am
I would have to agree with Ed on this one. Zee – that was really out of line.
Back the subject at hand, Natalie – I understand your basic point but I would like to point out that quite often those people living off welfare may actually be suffering from something like depression that, if they had proper medical care, could be treated with therapy and/or medication, which would ultimately lead to them rejoining the world of productive, happy people.
Many Americans are afraid of change and quickly look for reasons not to accept it, like maybe it will lead to a huge Federal deficit or to our country becoming “socialist”. A country that doesn’t adapt and look for new ways of addressing long-term problems will remain stagnant or go into decline. Just take a look at world history. When it comes to health insurance, ensuring that people have access to adequate medical care, and the general health of Americans, I think change is needed. Please try to keep an open mind and stop rushing to judgement based on the most prominent slogans of the opposition.
May 22nd, 2009 at 9:25 am
Yes, this grand plan is an Obama original; this guy who smokes and is the omnipotent one about health care and healthy lifestyle. This is another path for the government to grab more while the politicians are bankrupting the nation. We need less government; the people have spoken on this subject yet the overpaid people in DC don’t care because they get theirs first. There is a rather simple solution: buy health insurance like we buy auto insurance. When we buy auto insurance we’re allowed shop for the best prices and to drive across the country, but for something important like health treatments, we are restricted to our local incompetents at high prices and can’t even shop for the best policy.
May 22nd, 2009 at 10:23 am
WOW, all these able bodied people and immigrants (like our parents, grandparents or great grandparents) taking illegally and you all KNOW them. If you KNOW these criminal; report it or you are complicent. If you do not KNOW, then you sound simply unhappy & gossipy.
May 22nd, 2009 at 10:33 am
It’s not about people who are fat, about taxing fatty foods–it’s about fraud! If someone would do something to clean up all of the fraud associated with health care, there would be no shortfall of funds. Medicare and state-controlled programs (Medicaid) especially, are fraught with fraud. Medicare and Medicaid doctors prescribe too many unnecessary medications, they charge for appointments that never take place, they charge for procedures and services that have not been provided. When a Medicare or Medicaid recipient receives an Explanation of Benefits, do they even read it? Do they care? Do they take action if it isn’t accurate? And, this applies to not only Medicare and Medicaid recipients, but to anyone and everyone covered under an insured medical plan.
Employees believe they pay for their medical coverage because there is a medical deduction on their paycheck. The portion they pay is likely around 20% of the total cost. Because they are paying a small portion of the cost for both medical and prescription drugs, they do not use their coverage responsibly. Employees spend more time researching the purchase of a new car, a computer, a television, a stroller (for gawd’s sake), than they do in making decisions relative to their own health care.
I manage the self-funded medical plans at my company and I cannot tell you how many fraud claims I have encountered. And, believe me, they are not easily reversed and there is always another scheme waiting to pounce!
Instead of blaming the administration (be it Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc.), take a look at what you and your family members are doing to control your medical costs. And, yes, that would include leading a healthy lifestyle.
May 22nd, 2009 at 11:03 am
As for me, there are whole families I know that have been taking advantage of the system, for generations. There are too many to point the finger at just one. My niece, who is a single mother, had her first child at 14, and second at 18, (yes!) had a good paying job, and when her AFCD ended, realized that it would cost her $300+ a month for family medical coverage. So, she quit her job, so she could collect welfare again, because she didn’t want to waste her “hard earned money” on insurance. Now, she’s going to go back to spending “our” hard earned money, on all her “un-necessary” emergency room visits. The question is, we live in a small town, so why don’t the hospital room employees notice that she’s coming in with things that are so easily treated, and turn her away, or turn her in for abusing the system? It’s not just her, I see it all the time, and it’s just a “common” occcurance. I used to feel sorry for a boy that goes to school with my son – he doesn’t have a mom, and his dad’s raising 3 kids on disability. Yet, he’s involved in all the activities that we can’t afford, plays the instruments in band that we can’t afford, etc, because since he’s poor, someone steps up and pays for him, or the band parent donations go to him, etc. My problem is, why do the kids of “hard working parents” have to quit from lack of funds, when he gets to do it all? And never a “thank you” out of it. And, of course, his family is also “emergency room” attendants, etc. Every year, they get a $7,000 tax refund (head of household credit), and buy games, flat screen TVs, this year it was a new computer, with a flat screen touch monitor, etc., but they are living in a habitat for humanity house, that the community built and gave to him.
May 22nd, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Natalie,
My point was not that fat people should be picked on and taxed, but rather no one should be taxed on this rediculus idea. The government should not tax us into behaving a certain way was my point.
May 22nd, 2009 at 2:09 pm
I haven’t posted for a number of days, but have been reading all your posts. You know, I have always been of the opinion you can’t legislate things that apply to individuals on a personal level. You can’t make them eat what is healthy, you can’t make them wear any certain kind of clothing, you can’t make them love any particular person, you can’t make them smart, you can’t make them an entreprenuer, you can’t even make them go to a doctor – or dentist through legislation. And the government should just stop trying to, and get on with what they are suppossed to be doing. Protecting us from aggression, listening to our State Governors (they do work for US, you know) and taking their cues as to what needs to be done for the welfare of each State from the government of that State, whether it is Interstate Roads and bridges that need built or maintained, or borders that need protecting, skys that need watched and managed, and things like that. Any Health Care system that is put into place at the Federal level, will become fraut with fraud. Too big a job, too big a responsibility for one entity. The Health Care, like many other things should be left to each individual State. If you don’t like what your State puts into place, you have 49 other states to choose from. The Federal Government (the President and Vice President) should only have to deal with 50 Govenors…….not the entire population. Let’s get efficient and run this country properly as our Founding Fathers intended. We don’t need nor want a Dictator, but when everything is left up to one man, that is what he will become.
May 22nd, 2009 at 2:40 pm
Joyce,
Funding for Interstates largely comes from the Federal government. And the Federal government protects our international borders and the Dept of Defense (Federal) has responsibility for Air Defense (watching the skies). I believe the basic intent of the Obama Administration is to make health insurance more affordable and accessible to all Americans. They would also like Americans in general to focus more on preventative medicine and other measures to stay healthy rather than only seeking medical care when we’re sick or injured. Remember the old saying, “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.”
And really don’t think the President’s intent is to become a dictator, any more than it is to create a socialist state. The sky isn’t falling, Chicken Little.
May 22nd, 2009 at 2:43 pm
If the sky isn’t falling then what the heck just hit me in the head?
May 22nd, 2009 at 3:06 pm
dritchie, much like Joyce I have just enjoyed the variety of banter and opinion.
It is doubtful that Obama could become a dictator, which isn’t the point. If you read the political and work histories of his oppointees at all levels, listen to his speeches and ignore the Pelosi’s and Biden’s (who are distractions to the public), his goal as is the new Secretary of Labor, Attorney General and other lower level appointees is to maximize government control over the citizens through legislation. Ultimately forcing everyone to conform to their belief of what society “must be”. We will see the total destruction of GM – the government is not qualified to run a company, nor is the UAW – I don’t fault them, but would any compentent person hire any of them to run a “for profit” multi-national business?
It is obvious their mission is to punish conservatives and especially Republicans by flipping everything they have done they don’t like, and taking credit for items they didn’t create.
Doubtful the US will become a socialist state – you will have a social revolt in this country that made the 1960’s seem like a quilting bee. Our country generally likes balance, but the proverbial tipping point will be the enactment of Obama’s and his supporters stated agenda. If you thought the Bush administration was conservative, hang on when the pendulum swings the opposite way.
You all have a great Memorial Day Weekend – say a prayer for our Service Members, and thank those that have served for protecting our way of life!
May 26th, 2009 at 9:27 am
Harold Gets It.
When are we going to hear that one of the many Acorn Affiliated Groups will help administer the health care reforms throughout the land supported by their enforcers at the SEIU.
They found the massive money laundering outlet for Acorn at 1024 Elysian Fields Avenue, New Orleans, LA but I hardly think the new AG will be looking into it since Obama had a hand in training them.
Watch the money trail and the mid/low level appointments and let Pelosi/Reed/Frank and those other characters spin as they truly are a distraction. This is the perfect storm.
May 26th, 2009 at 9:33 am
I am interested in knowing the source of the information about “Acorn” and its affiliated groups. I know little of the group and would appreciate sources for what is said as the allegation sounds interesting but provides no support in the “blog” by HR2.
May 26th, 2009 at 9:48 am
Do any of you know the kids’ song ” This is the song that never ends, it just goes on and on my friends………………………. This is the blog that never ends, it just goes on and on my friends……. I’ve enjoyoed reading everyone’s point of view…but let’s wait to find out what will be contained in Obama’s Health Care Reform that hopes to insure 45,000,000 uninsured Americans and then perhaps resume the blogging.
May 26th, 2009 at 9:56 am
This time, Zee, I have to agree with you…
May 26th, 2009 at 10:05 am
Somehow I missed HR2’s comment on ACORN. I think the original mission of ACORN that was fully supported by the President Bush administration (housing and so forth assistance) for lower income families is tremendous.
Where most of the flac came from was the voter registration issues that in several districts became criminal acts of voter fraud. This is aggravating when the funding primarily comes from taxpayers, and ACORN was openly supporting one specific party or candidate.
Suggest those interested read the ACORN website, and then read other articles relating to the investigations. Unfortunately, I dare say they will slide into oblivion.
You all be nice to each other!
May 26th, 2009 at 10:08 am
Well I submitted a variety of online sources since we are online…..
May 26th, 2009 at 10:52 am
No links are appearing here yet….sorry
May 26th, 2009 at 11:03 am
http://glennbeck.blogs.foxnews.com/2009/05/13/trying-to-unravel-the-acorn-string/
one link anyway……
May 26th, 2009 at 11:17 am
Speaking of Health Care…Acorn is a cancer that needs to be excised immediately and for good.
May 26th, 2009 at 11:33 am
HR2 -
Here is a link that aswers the inflamatory attacks, now post your sources that support your claims of money laundering and voter fraud and whatever else you are proposing.
http://www.acorn.org/fileadmin/Vote/ACORNVoterRegistration.Myths_Facts.8pgs.pdf
May 26th, 2009 at 11:43 am
All together now 1 2 3 This is the blog that never ends, it just goes on and on my friends, some people started blogging in connection with health care reform, now they are just blogging and going on and on and on, This is the blog that never ends, it just goes on and on my friends, some people started blogging in connection with health care reform,n ow they are just blogging and going on and on and on, This is the blog that neverends, it just goes on and on my friends, some people started blogging in connection with thealth care reform, now they are just blogging and going on and on and on. This is the blog that never ends…………………………………………..
May 26th, 2009 at 11:54 am
Zee, Get over yourself….first you attack an individual then you go on an on trying to stop everyone else from commenting. What’s your point? Is it that you simply don’t want to read the posts or don’t want to hear other opinions besides your own?
May 26th, 2009 at 11:58 am
I’m adding some humor to the situation. That’s my point. I have read every blog, have respected every opinion and I was very happy to have the opportunity to voice mine.
So guess what….I have no plans on getting over myself. I like me and my humor!!!!
May 26th, 2009 at 12:06 pm
The only real humor is see is when you say you’ve respected every opinion. Now that’s funny.
May 26th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
My links were never published so there is only one……there were about 15 or so…..the common retort as esposued by Saul Alisnsky followers is to ridicule anyone who opposes your viewpoint so they will react negatively. Won’t happen here….
May 26th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
Gordon To respect an opinion, does not necessarily mean that one agrees with the opinion.
May 26th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
Zee –
This is your comment to Natalie, is this your way of respecting an opinion? You don’t have to agree with someone to show them respect. But I have Zee-ro respect for you.
“The topic of this blog is to give opinions on health care reform, and not to hear your pious opinion of how the country is headed towards doom, which apparently is your misguided, and I would venture to say, ignorant attitude.”
May 26th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Watch the Acorn Spokesperson on Glenn Beck who dodged all the simple questions put to him about the fraud and scandals and then he goes on to pitch the female producer (physically) offstage and even calls her again the next day.
He gives Beck the tired old “you’re just afraid of blacks” nonsense to Beck off camera which is to meant to throw you off topic.
The spokesperson did leave a voice message to the female producer the next day pitching her again…a real skeeve. The voice message was also played on TV.
I note the sole link provided here was from Acorn…now THAT is funny Zee. Wonder why my links weren’t posted? Too many maybe?
May 26th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
Gordon, he attacks others because he lacks supportable facts to back up any of his arguments and relies on ridicule…don’t fall for this overused tactic….he is humorless, knows it and is trying to get a rise out of you…. here is some additional links…let’s see if they publish them……listen and read for yourselves……
http://glennbeck.blogs.foxnews.com/2009/05/13/trying-to-unravel-the-acorn-string/
http://www.michnews.com/Michael_J_Gaynor/mg51209a.shtml
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.news.internet.discuss/msg/f1b182c5687dc90b?pli=1
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2253994/posts
http://www.webcommentary.com/php/ShowArticle.php?id=gaynorm&date=090513
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFX_xvLFq9o
http://therealbarackobama.wordpress.com/2009/05/08/glenn-beck-interviews-two-members-of-the-acorn-8/
May 26th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
HR2,
Although I wouldn’t say that providing several links to conservative-leaning websites like glenn beck’s site, the freerepublic site, or a cut-and-paste discussion on google necessarily means your opinions are based on fact, here’s a site that talks about Obama’s health plan, which I think was the original subject of this exhange of opinions:
http://www.factcheck.org/politics/government-run_health_care.html
Okay, sorry to be quitter, but I’ve got to get back to work… Best to all, regardless of your particular political slant.
May 26th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
HR2 – I called out someone that insulted another individual and then had the audacity to claim she respects every opinion.
As far as you go, I agree with dritchie that your links don’t facutally support anything. But I respect your opion.
May 26th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Sorry about the typos.
As far as you go, I agree with dritchie that your links don’t factually support anything. But I respect your opinion.
May 26th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
I suppose I could provide the links about the actual federal indictments of the organization from 3 of the 12 states that are investigating the organization that might help…..you can find them easily enough. The links not posted were from both liberal and right leaning sites including the NY and SF Times of all places……so be it…both sides know about the corruption.
May 26th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
I still say you can disagree with someone’s opinion, and give your own opinion, but at the same time RESPECT someone’s opposing opinion.
Anyway, that’s it for me and this blog. Till next time….good night, and good luck!
May 27th, 2009 at 8:27 am
Yes Zee that would be what HAS commonly been the norm in our country….it is called civility.
This has changed dramatically and the new rules (unfortunately) followed by the people bent on destroying our country and now so blatantly demonstrated by the White House, is to ridicule anyone who disagrees with their position. This will get much worse shortly.
You see practitioners of this Alinsky principle right here on this blog.
There also is two sets of standards…the lower one for the radicals who expect you to believe anything they say – “simply because” (like asking Acorn or Pelosi if they did anything wrong) and the higher standard for anyone else who dares have a different opinion that must go into extraordinary detail to demonstrate a point.
Maybe radicals are just lazy which is why they lust for a big ineffective government (now with 66K more employees since 1-21-09) to hide their corrupt practices and nanny them.
What they say and what they do are incongruent. Speaker Pelosi and Barney Frank are good examples.
Perfect Hypocrites.
The response when the point is proven is to then say nothing – or claim you are a racist …another Alinsky principle. Obfuscate and ridicule and destroy. Rule 11.
So, let the ongoing federal and 12 state indictments of Acorn, the unreported embezzlement of $1M by the founder of Acorn, the guilty pleas and calls of corruption by current and past Acorn Board Members reported in the NY and SF Times and on TV serve as demonstration enough for the naysayers.
Going to the Acorn website as rebuttal is pretty ridiculous isn’t it? Sounds Lazy. Maybe the Huffington Post will have some valuable and factual information that can be vetted out as truthful? LOL
Heck, these people still think the CIA conspired to bomb the WTC ….so they will undoubtedly claim the indictments for fraud is a right wing conspiracy against poor people….. same ole’ same ole’…..
May 27th, 2009 at 9:49 am
Here is some more info on the health care topic that some Republicans are suggesting:
http://eba.benefitnews.com/news/republican-proposal-raises-questions-about-employer-based-system-2672482-1.html?zkPrintable=true
May 27th, 2009 at 10:04 am
This will be my last post as I can see this has gotten very off topic. HR2, you can have the last word although I believe you are describing yourself when you are talking about lazy radicals. Posting any number of links from right-wing conservative websites and blogs from google are only exemplifying what you say about radicals that want you to believe “simply because”. And then saying “I suppose I could provide the links about the actual federal indictments of the organization from 3 of the 12 states that are investigating the organization that might help…..you can find them easily enough.” Maybe if you had, your position might be supportable. Anything might be better than that ridiculous post from the Michigan news about Margy the Teacher and the stink bomb.
I posted the link from the Acorn website because it answered your attacks with cited sources, and the sources have some degree of credulity. If you have an education, you should realize the difference between what you posted and what I posted without me having to go into great detail to explain it to you. And in this country when someone or something faces an accusation, you the accuser should listen to the explanation. The link that dritchie posted to factcheck.org also cites its sources.
Zee insulted another blogger, Natalie, who Zee said has a “pious …misguided, and …ignorant attitude.” How can anyone say that and maintain that she “respects every opinion”. HR2, you used the word and it really seems to fit “Hypocrites”.
Have a good life in your little conservative world full of doom and gloom, where conspiracies abound and all the children are good looking.
May 27th, 2009 at 10:32 am
Glad you enjoyed reporting on some of the assorted links…and yes our children are good looking so thank you!
“some degree of credulity”……is that like “might even be vetted or truthful”….. or asking a criminal if they are guilty or not? Oh, sorry forgot…..maybe only conservatives are guilty before proven so…..hard to take your own medicine. Indictments too hard to fathom? Let’s just ignore the obvious since MOTO does that for you.
No subscription to conspiracy theories here – you must be confused. So, the other sites that portrayed the facts you couldn’t report on…sound like you’ve had some experience with a grand jury at one time or another.
Attacks?
There you go again…trying to obfuscate….are you confused. Too heavy a diet of GE/MSNBC/NBC maybe.
Funny watching you get a taste of your own liberal medicine and watching you blow a gasket.
May 27th, 2009 at 11:00 am
Hey HR2,
Do you have any idea what the subject is of the article that started this commentary?
And are you the same person who said “This has changed dramatically and the new rules (unfortunately) followed by the people bent on destroying our country and now so blatantly demonstrated by the White House, is to ridicule anyone who disagrees with their position.”? It seems to me that ridiculing others who don’t share your political views is your favorite past time. Maybe you spent too much time listening to Rush Limbaugh in your younger years… And did you know that the word “radical” can apply to both ends of the political spectrum? Radical – a person holding extreme political views. Hmm…
If anyone seems to have blown a gasket here, I would say it’s HR2. Or maybe you’re just trying to get under the skin of some “liberals” while you have the stage of this supposedly HR-oriented website. I’m afraid anyone who was really interested in an open and thought-provoking discussion of the healthcare topic that was the subject of the article have probably already left us.
May 27th, 2009 at 11:41 am
About health care reform…I think most people feel it is needed, but the question in my mind is, should the government provide the solution? I don’t live in a socialist country (yet) and hope not to. While there might be some advantages to doing so, the taxes are always higher, the service is usually diminished / limited and quality is often sacrificed. I personally don’t believe that those who work hard (be it a business owner or an employee) for everything they get should have to foot the bill for those who entered this country illegally, for those who work the system rather than work and for those who do not contribute in some way. I do believe there needs to be a safety net for people who have encountered unfortunate times due to the economy or who are unable to work and contribute because of various disabilities. Differentiating between the groups is often difficult, but in my mind, this distinction needs to be made somehow. That’s just my opinion.
I do think the pharmaceutical companies, the hospitals, clinics, lawyers and insurance companies play a big part in the “expensiveness” of our current system. How much and to what degree, not being an expert, I can’t offer any factual data. Again, it’s just my opinion. Unless all parties agree to play together nicely and come up with some real solutions, I doubt we will see any major changes. In many instances, these types of businesses are some of the only ones who have maintained a high level of profitability during the difficult economic times. There is big money at stake and until they begin to seek solutions (rather than just protecting big profits), the outlook is dismal. In a rather knee-jerk reaction to this, the government is planning to step in. But either direction the pendulum swings will probably mean someone wins and someone loses. I want to see us look for win-win solutions…which I DO think is possible. It will just take a whole lot more work and will require looking at various perspectives and not simply pandering to the people clamoring for free coverage.
As far as taxing various products to fund this “free” health care system that is being touted as the great shining star, it seems to me that placing a higher tax on things like soft drinks (diet ones too?) is rather radical. Tobacco definitely contributes to a slew of health issues. I can see that more clearly simply because the factual data proves most people who smoke are going to have more major problems. Most. Not all. But just how bad is diet pop and how much does it contribute to health problems? There are so many things that contribute to poor health, truly, what could you fairly tax additionally (where data is undeniable)? As some have said, stress is a killer…so how do you place an additional tax on areas like this to “penalize” EVERY area that contributes to poor health so as to fairly spread the cost of a socialistic system?
Eliminating some of the tax exemptions surrounding the payment of health coverage is just requiring those individuals who work to pay for those who do not. It’s penalizing those employers who still try to take care of their employees and encourages them not to do so. In my opinion, this is not a good solution. Most of those who work can’t afford it and most businesses are already being required to fork over large sums of money just to provide the benefit. Many will stop offering group coverage and that is going to hurt more people than it will help.
Obviously there is a problem and the answers are not easy or simple. I wish I had a magic wand. It’s going to take a lot of people, industries and special interest groups working together to come up with a solution that doesn’t injure a lot of people while helping a few. I can only hope it happens, but I’m not holding my breath. In the meantime, I worry.
May 27th, 2009 at 11:50 am
Bravo, R.B.! This is the fairest, most balanced statement on this blog. It ’s time for all of us to quit talking to each other and talk to our representatives. They need to know how things work in the world outside of Washington.
May 27th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
Thank you dritchie & Gordon.
May 29th, 2009 at 10:14 am
For any healthcare reforms to work and to discourage fraud and abuse, there has to be transparency in the system. As we see with the current large government programs such as Medicare, Medicaid, etc., you can’t really rely on a large bureaucratic government entity to review these tens of thousands of bills and individual line items that go pages and pages long and catch errors for which they have no first-hand knowledge. It really has to be the patient/consumer who catches these errors, overcharges, fraudulent charges, etc. because they are the only one (besides the one filing the claims/bills) who really know what procedures were done, what drugs were administered, etc.
Unfortunately, even though it is a great benefit for seniors and others to have basically “free” services though Medicare, it is a system that is ripe for fraud. Implementing more government programs will surely lead to more of this type of accounting abuse of the system. Even a whole swam of auditors would probably still not be able to identify most of what are correct charges and what may be overcharges, fraudulent, etc.
A system needs to be developed to encourage the consumer to actually review the Explanation of Benefits and review these in detail for errors. As the system currently stands, these EOBs are completely confusing, redundant, and there is no incentive for the beneficiary to review these at all to ensure they are correct. As long as someone (else) is paying the bill, most people don’t care what is being charged, even if they could understand these EOBs, etc.
The system needs to be overhauled to make it simpler for the consumer/beneficiary to review bills and needs to have an incentive (usually financial) to get people to actually review these charges. Transparency of services and costs will help to bring down costs, reduce fraud, and eventually improve services. My thoughts are that increasing the co-pay amounts, etc would give people an incentive to look at the cost/benefits and help make more informed decisions. This isn’t an idea that is palletable to a lot of people because if you are sickly or have genetic predisposition to illness, or have some other reason for using the medical system more often then this would hurt you. However, any rational solution should take these situations into account and afford a solution for these obstacles that work hand-in-hand with increasing financial transparency and accountablilty.
There may be completely different solutions that would work. Unfortunatley I’m not an expert and don’t proclaim to have all (or even a lot) of the answers. I’m just suggesting taking ideas and concepts regarding the free market that work in other aspects of our lives and attempting to apply some of these to fixing the health care system. I’ve learned a lot from all the comments above and a lot of them have got me thinking in slightly different directions.
No one solution or approach is going to be the silver bullet, but if you get enough people with enough different ideas out there discussing it, surely a combination of things can be created to fix a good portion of the issues. Hopefully everyone can see portions of peoples comments that may be good or might not work. If you find parts that don’t work, perhaps minor tweaks or modifications, or even setting up a parallel system that aligns with the primary system for the outliers may work.
May 29th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
Keith is quite right in terms of transparency and the obligation of patients to review the accuracy of charges.
Reality is:
1. @80% of health costs are for the very elderly at end of life or the very ill with catastrophic care requirements. Neither group is equiped to do such review; a bureaucracy, public or private, is needed to oversee. I happen to trust the motivation of government employees more than business men.
2. If ill or having a family member ill, many are not able to question the doctor or facility they feel holds their well being in their hands. There is a fear of antagonizing the person so integral to their health.
I am always amazed that the public bureaucracy is viewed as so vile vs. the business bureaucracies. There is no profit incentive in any Social Security employee I’ve ever dealt with nor those at my DMV or Dept. of Public Health or any of the government institutioons I’m aware of. Though I will admit, Dick Cheney made a ton of $$$ for his private business friends & companies through gov work.
May 29th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Karen,
You hit the nail on the head with your comment on the motivation of business vs. government, but this…
“Though I will admit, Dick Cheney made a ton of $$$ for his private business friends & companies through gov work.”
….is golden.
Thank you!
May 29th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Karen, I don’t think the public/government employees are vile. However, they are probably overwhelmed with data and information and may or may not have the time and capability to review and find fraud. Even for those of us in benefits, who have a real motive to save money on our premiums, it would be an insurmountable task. I do not trust the insurance companies as they have nothing to lose…they just raise premiums. I do have a concern, however, that government programs like Medi-care and Medi-caid continue to lower the amount they pay providers while the costs go up. There will at some time be a degradation in the quality and availability of care. There has to be a better way, but the people who are making the decisions may not be getting all the input they need from a variety of constituents. I strongly urge all of you who care so much to contact your legislators and give them your opinions.
Have a nice weekend, Everyone!
May 29th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
R.B., Keith and Karen;
Thanks for reviving the discussion and throwing some interesting thoughts and ideas out there.
If nothing else, I think this demonstrates that it is a very complicated subject and there needs to be some kind of change made. Instead of fearing change and wanting to stay with the status quo because we personally don’t have a problem or because we are politically opposed to the current Administration, we should be encouraging our elected officials to get involved in shaping the change for the good of society as a whole. I know, that makes me sound like a radical liberal, which I certainly am not.
Big business for the most part is motivated to increase profits, not develop a system that serves the people most effectively. If somehow corporate profits were more closely tied to customer satisfaction, limiting abuse, and continuous improvement of the system, then the free market system might work without government intervention. Big business needs to look down the road 5, 10, 15 years instead of doing what it can to maximize profits or grab a bigger piece of the market this year or next. If GM and Chrysler had done that, who knows where they would be now…
May 29th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Karen, Gordon
Keith was making so much sense. Then you have to try to muddy the discussion with reference to Dick Cheney, which you may have a legitiment beef, but we Conservatives could throw mud to, at, lets say, Al Gore for starters when it comes to polititans making money at our expense.
When government pays a (businessman, re: doctor) less than they deserve, fraud is their only way to get paid their just wage. I am not saying that is right, I am only saying human nature kicks in. I agree, an oversight is needed, but my experience with government workers has not been too good. Most of them seem to be working for the government because they couldn’t make in in the private sector. In other words, not very effecient. Not all, but most. Or maybe the problem is with incentive, or supvision or something lacking that the private sector provides. So there is a problem there. Maybe the answer is a private sector business set up to oversee and catch fraud with a % of that recovered as their incentive (pay), and a contract to turn the names of the perpetrators in to law enforment or The Attoney General or some such governing body and a fine so steep it discourages fraud. If everyone were honest and self policing, wouldn’t we all be happy. Dream on………
May 29th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
Joyce,
You said, “Most of them (government workers) seem to be working for the government because they couldn’t make in in the private sector. In other words, not very effecient. Not all, but most.” Really? Is that based on a wealth of experience? What government employees have you actually observed at work for any length of time.
While serving in the Air Force for over 20 years I worked with hundreds of government civilian employees. Most of them were driven by a desire to do something for their country – to make a difference. Now I am an executive for a government contracting firm and frequently observe government employees in their work environment doing good work, work that has to be done, with the full knowledge that they could probably be making more money working in the private sector. The myth that the average government worker is a lazy, inefficient slob is only perpetuated by comments like yours.
And as for Dick Cheney, when I was in the USAF and he was the Secretary of Defense I was a fan of his. But sometime after leaving that position it seems like he joined the Dark Side and now when I see his picture I feel like I’m looking at Darth Vader without a mask.
And thanks for getting us off topic again!
June 27th, 2009 at 6:07 am
Can you provide more information on this, or do you have some resources you can share where i can read more about such issues?