Universal health coverage: Are the odds of passage increasing?
March 13, 2009 by Jim GiulianoPosted in: Employment law, Health care, Money, Special Report, policies
It was 16 years ago that a business and insurance coalition sunk the Hillary Clinton-led proposal for universal health care in the United States. But times have changed — and so have the odds that a proposal led by President Obama will succeed.
What’s different? A number of things:
Business support. The Clinton initiative failed partly because business groups opposed the plan, and many business leaders today still are skeptical of any government-led plan. Those same business leaders are also looking at what employee health coverage is costing and where it’s headed — up, mainly. These days, business leaders are at least willing to listen to the details of any plan that puts a lid on health spending. The business groups that have come out in support of a universal plant include such unusual suspects as the Business Roundtable and the National Federation of Independent Business.
Coalition forces. Supporters of the Clinton plan felt as if they got ambushed by opponents — you may remember the “Harry and Louise” TV ads. And those supporters vow they won’t let it happen again. They’ve teamed up to form a group consisting of the Campaign for America’s Future, MoveOn.org and Health Care for America. That coalition kicked off its push by handing Congress a petition with 300,000 signatures during a White House-led healthcare forum on March 5. Add to that the support of The Divided We Fail healthcare coalition headed by the AARP, and you have a formidable group.
President Obama. At least for now, Barack Obama is seen as a less divisive figure than the Clintons were in the early ’90s, so that gives him a head start with Republicans who are on the fence about universal coverage. One example of the difference: Obama called Dr. J. James Rohack, the incoming president of the American Medical Association, for consultation on the plan; the Clintons left out the AMA. Rohack has said he’s had “a very good dialogue” with the Obama administration. On top of that, Obama operatives have figured how to use the Internet to garner support, and they’re ready to launch an e-campaign for universal coverage.
Tags: AARP, AMA, MoveOn.org, National Federation of Independent Business, obama
March 16th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
We have been in need of universaI health coverage for far too long a time and I am wholeheartedly in favor of Universal Health Coverage that will assure every citizen, regardless of age or circumstances, will be entitled to health care when they need it. There are far too many stories circulating that persons young and old have died due to the fact they lacked health insurance to seek the proper medical treatment that they required. Or, in some cases when the person showed up at the Emergency Room they were given minimum treatment and then referred to their Primary Care Physician for follow- up; but unfortunately they had no insurance for further follow-up care.
March 16th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
My hats off to President Obama. It sounds like he is trying to get ideas from a host of people on this issue. It’s nice to finally have a President who will ask for advice.
March 16th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
Universal health care WILL NOT and HAS NEVER worked – just look to our friends up north (Canada) who pour over the boarders by the thousands for treatment because they can not get the “system” to provide the coverage they need. I would also point to failed systems across Europe and say — Cindy — what are you talking about? Quit believing / drinking the “CHANGE” Mantra / Koolaid and do some research on the topic!
March 16th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
I wonder if they’ll keep our countries flag the same or if they’ll change it to be more reflective of the new status quo…
Like removing the white and blue and changing the stars to something a little more indicative of our country’s “worker spirit”
something like this maybe:
March 16th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
The argument against universal health care – is that the govt will mismanage it.
BUT have the greedy special interest groups really done anything to control healthcare costs?
The govt may actually do better, beleive it or not.
March 16th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
to Dan:
Apparantly you don’t believe what you are reading here on HR Morning because that is where I am getting my info.
I’ve been without insurance during cancer treatment…I had to do without some things that could have kept me from getting cancer for a second and third time. I saw FIRST hand what being without insurance can do to a person.
March 16th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
I whole heartedly agree with Dan – this country needs to WAKE UP! and see that this has not worked in other countries!
March 16th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
With Universal Health Coverage, everyone will be entitled to health care, sure, but they won’t get it. The system will be so overloaded with people running to the doctor for every little issue because it’s free or low cost, that you will be lucky to get any care at all, much less any quality care. The same things that Bonita mentions will still happen, only on a much larger scale. Wait and see!
March 16th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
Cindy – I am truly sorry for the situation you find yourself in but that does not change the fact that universal health care is not the solution to your problem – seriously – do some research on why Canadians pour into this country daily seeking treatment for illness’ just like yours – there is a reason the come to the US — in this country we have OPTIONS because our health care is still free market – every country that has universal health care has the same horror stories that Canada has. To trust this resource for you facts alone, without doing your own research, is also a big mistake.
March 16th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
to Dan:
I had no options when I didn’t have health insurance either so what is the difference? I had to go to doctors who didn’t prescribe the best course of treatment and I couldn’t get a second opinion. I’ve also heard that it’s not as bad as you say in Canada. Honestly, I couldn’t say for sure as I have not done any research on this but this is one issue that you won’t change my mind on. Something has to be done so people don’t end up where I was at.
March 16th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Socialism/nationalization/universal/communism, whatever you want to call it, doesn’t work. It always fails, and the people living under it, pay for it dearly. It looks so inviting and “fair”, and a small percentage come out ahead temporarily, but in the long run, everyone loses. When you punish those who produce, then they will stop producing.
Capitolism or free market, without the ball and chains of regulations dragging it down, have raised the standard of living for more people in the world than any other system in history.
Don’t throw our freedoms away for something that always fails. Several leaders of former Soviet Union countries have recently pleaded with us to avoid going where they came from.
March 16th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Universal Health Care always sounds great – until you look at who is paying for it. The problem is the cost will be so astronimical is may be the nail in the coffin. With all the waste in Washington has, it may be possible to eliminate the waste and provide some basic health packages, but that is a pipe dream. I must remind people that everything sounds great, but sometimes it isn’t realistic. Just look at the health care plans the government “manages” now – Medicare & Medicaid. How much money is sitting in the accounts for these two health insurance programs? We can throw in Social Security for good measure as well. To my recollection – they are all technically bankrupt – we just keep them afloat with borrowed money. At some point, the lenders will say enough and they tax payers can no longer afford to pay the taxes.
I see where companies may be interested in a universal health care plan to ease their costs or rising health insurance premiums. The fed’s will have to find someone to pay for it, so businesses should not expect the governement to shoulder the burden. As fiscally irresponsible as the governement is, both businesses and tax payers will be a major player in covering costs without boundries. The skies the limit until gravity pulls it back down to reality.
March 16th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
And how do you spell S O C I A L I S M???????????????
March 16th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Dan, I don’t know where these Canadians are coming from, haven’t heard of any. In fact, as a hotelier, I get plenty of people coming to my area for the hospitals, but they are all Americans, seeking specialized care, with insurance.
Further, no system in the world will provide Cadillac care to everyone. The rich will always get what they want from the free market system. It is all the rest of us (and I include myself, even as a business owner) who wish to get SOME care and not be hit with absurdly high bills, or have to make awful choices about what tests to get, or whether to go to a doctor, or whether to buy the drugs prescribed because of the cost.
Would you have the educational system be free market too? It is very similar in its benefits to the whole society. And independent schools still flourish, while everyone still has a chance for free education through high school.
March 16th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Bonita and Cindy are right. It’s time to grow up as a nation and offer our citizens the decency of health care. We are shameful for not doing so long before. Universal Health Care should cone through a single payer system- the government. It is a worthwhile beaurocracy- what’s the alternative, greedy, heartless corp executives with fat salaries? We need to let employers be employers and relieve themselves of the financial burden and stress of playing health care gate keeper.
It seems that Dan and KATDC are the ones driking the cool aid of failed conservative policies and false information. Sorry guys, your poisonous trite visions and false information arent working as well on the American people. I’d love to have the health care of Canada; and cheep medications- remember that Americans have been going to Canada for them. Hey Dan, do you really want to do some research on the topic and see what people do and don’t have for health care in this country?
March 16th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
To Dan,
I looked for information on the Canadian Healthcare system. I found that Canadians overwhelmingly back the system, live healthier, longer lifespans, have a lower infant mortality and spend less on medical care. I learned that 62% of Americans favor universal healthcare. Private American hospitals have excess capacity (because there are too many of them), causing them to charge more because they’re not full, but Canada doesn’t fund excess capacity.
Where do I find the information you cited?
March 16th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
It is spelled OBAMA –
I have known people that worked for American companies in Europe – they stated that the government health care was terrible about as good as free clinics in innner cities. Not to mention that income taxes are nearly 50% of pay and the unemployment is normally higher than we are experiencing at this time.
Really study the other countries and how things are there – it is not good.
Universal coverage sounds good and would be great – if we could do it right – not at all like Europe.
March 16th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
Universal health care is definately not the answer. Staying healthy would make good sense. We, as Americans think we can abuse our bodies from the time we are born until – oh gee — I have diabetes, or Cancer, or heart trouble or some other madady — then expect someone else to take care of it. We HAD BETTER start taking responsibilty for our own health, and stop crying it is someone elses problem when we get diseased. I agree, the cost of insurance is out of hand. ANd the cost of medical care is out of hand also. 1) Stop the old idea that providing health care should be handeled by the Employer. We don’t insure there automobiles, why should we insure their health? Everytime someone changes jobs, the create another insurance change. This increases Admin costs for both the business and and insurance companies and increases the cost of insurance. 2) Do something about the malpractice insurance costs, both for the hospitals and the doctors. This might keep them from giving tests that are just butt covers and really not necessary, but do drive up the costs of care. When the hospital finds out you are insured, they give you every test known to man because it helps pay for their equipment. Huge waste of money goes on in hospitals. This would not change under Universal HealthCare. They government would simply tax us more to pay for it.
Quality would go down, fraud would go up, and our taxes would pay for it all. When has the Government ever done something better than the private sector? NEVER!!
March 16th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
Maybe President Obama will get it right.
March 16th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
I started my HR career 20 years ago in Medical Cost Containment for a Fortune 50 company. Before that, I had 15 years of Clinical and Management experience in Healthcare. I’ve also held an Insurance License, and part of my HR work has been for a Medical Benefits TPA company. So I’ve been on all sides – Provider, Hospital, Purchaser, Seller, Payor, and including the Consumer’s.
A government plan will bankrupt the country even further, and when that happens, it will lead to strict rationing, like Canada and England, or a Socialistic 50% tax rate, like Europe and the Scandanavians. Not a good plan.
Cost cutting controls don’t work, because every Nurse and Therapist (and Doctor) wants to make more money next year, and every Hospital wants the latest technology to draw more Drs and Patients, even if it’s only Marginally better on Outcomes.
The Best Way (In My Considered Opinion), is to open up ACCESS to more plans. Don’t limit group plans to Employers, allow any Association (AARP, ACLU, Teacher’s Unions, CREDIT UNIONS, SHRM, etc, etc) to purchase a Group Plan on the open market.
If people like Cindy could get a GOOD plan, (maybe not the GREATEST PLAN, but a GOOD Plan) even at 100% cost, through SHRM, she wouldn’t have to pay exhorbant COBRA rates, or rely on Public Health services.
If NAACP, or La Raza, or AFLCIO were able to buy a variety of Group plans, and offer the same to their consituents, then ACCESS would be dramatically improved, COST SHIFTING (to non-insureds) would be virtually eliminated, and the rate structure would dramatically improve.
These would have to be fully funded plans, vs self insured because the Associations – particularly the Not for profits – don’t want to be “in business” of putting back the reserves needed to pay claims – but that would still create dozens of opportunities and choices.
Will we still have increased costs? Sure – salaries will continue to go up, and technology needs to be paid for. But right now, I believe COST SHIFTING drives prices more than the 3 – 5% salary increases.
Consumer Education, on Costs, Outcomes and Prevention needs to improve… maybe you DO want to pay for the 5 Generation CAT scan, or maybe a 4th Generation machine at 50% lower cost would work just fine ! If it’s your money, and the data is available, you and your doctor can decide.
If its the govt money and its rationed, pretty soon no one will ever see a 5th Generation machine. OR we’ll end up with a two or three level system: The Govt Plan, and whatever else you can buy on the open or black market.
That’s the BENSON PLAN, and I’m sticking to it!
March 16th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
EXACTLY RIGHT – Ed — If folks would only do the proper research BEFORE jumping on the FREE MEDICINE badwagon I think they would be shocked at what a universal health care program is all about. Having lived in Europe, Africa, Asia and the United States I have seen many “systems” frist hand – and what we have here in the good old USA is by far the most advanced and best system out there. I am not against Mr. Obama but I am against SOCIALISM which he appears to be mirroring in all his policies — Look at Cuba’s economy and health care system as an example – IT DOES NOT WORK!
March 16th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
I hope so – because I am not for 50% income tax rates with crappy medical coverage. The main problem and one that most liberals (not all) do not see – is that creating the large government agencies is a huge problem – it eats up all of the money and there is NO accountability for their waste.
I apologize for saying that socialism is spelled OBAMA – I am behind him now that he has been elected but I hope our new direction isn’t full blown socialism.
I served this Country in war time – I DO NOT want it going the way of failing Europe
March 16th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
While such a program as universal health care will be put a tremedendous strain on our budget, there is no doubt that something needs to be done in this area. Too many people have gone without care and those lucky enough to get care have ended up bankrupt because they were unemployed and had no health care insurance at the time of their illness.
A friend of mine who was laid off last year suffered a stoke a few months ago and had to be rushed to the hospital from his home. The bill for his three day stay is nearly 100K. He does not have that kind of money sitting in his bank account so now he is at risk of losing his home. Once again, this is not something that should be happening to good people who have worked hard all their lives only to get sick when they are between jobs or unemployed.
March 16th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
Then move to Canada Rick – if it is so great there – MOVE.
March 16th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
Can Dan tell us how many Canadians have poured in to the US for treatment? It seems to me that in the US, if you are rich enough you better not ill. Perhaps Dan is not in a position like Cindy – I wonder what he would say if he is the one needs medical care and cannot afford to pay for high insurance premiums. If I work for a large corporation who has the bargaining power I may get insured for a relatively low premium. If I should lose that job and ended up with a small company, even though my health condition has not changed, I may now pay a higher premium with a lower level of coverage.
I know of small business owners who cannot afford health insurance even for themselves, let alone their employees. I know of people who have gone bankrupt due the high cost of medical treatments.
Is this is the free market system that Dan considers to be better than the Canadian and European system. Even some less developed Asian countries have better protection for their citizens.
What we need is a system that will allow anyone with a major death threatening illness to be treated. However, we should not expect the government to do everything; we should be prepared to pay for minor ailments and not just rely on insurance companies. We should take responsibility to lead a healthy lifestyle. Any insurance system should reward those who choose a healthy lifestyle and discourage those who don’t.
March 16th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
Living a healthy life style didn’t help me. I thin, exercise and eat right and STILL got cancer….family thing. So unfortunately, I couldn’t fight genetics with healthy living.
Another frightening thought is that if I lose my health care now through my employer, no one will pick me up…I’m too risky. This insurance companies are turning down relatively healthy people for insurance. Luckily with President Obamas subsidy, I may be able to afford COBRA. Without it, I couldn’t.
March 16th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
Cindy and many like her do not care about the Country as a whole – they have the what about me mentallity. Many liberals only care about and vote based on what it will do for them – NOT on what will be best for the US.
Holy picture posing is what the vast majority of politicians are doing – not getting anything real done to help our Nation.
There are numerous things like universal health care that would be great – utopian in fact – however done wrong will impoversh the entire country.
It is like the idiots (Democrats) that run Milwaukee, WI – they have been spending money studying light rail systems in Europe to help the pooerer urban people. The problem is these systems do not work well in the snow – HELLO!! we get snow six months out of a year! Several hundred thousand dollars have been wasted already – and they are not done yet.
March 16th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
Normally I don’t respond to these posts, but this is one that I feel compelled to respond to. I am wholeheartedly AGAINST universal healthcare.
1) I will not be able to receive the quality care I receive now, as the government will dictate treatments
2) Who will pay for this? You and I, and all of the businesses (in tax payments), so prices will go up because overhead goes up
3) We should educate people to stop using the emergency rooms for a slight headache/toothache, utilization of minute clincis and Urgent Cares are for this
4) Universal Healthcare was tried in Hawaii for children just recently and it lasted for not even a year because the state went broke. Most employers stopped carrying health coverage…..so if this happened in one state, what will happen for the whole country???? see this website for the story: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,440561,00.html
March 16th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
I will say that I am behind the subsidy – but hate the way that employers have to recoup their costs – this “great plan” is costing employers desperately trying to keep employees more money. Our company is struggling to not have to cut any more people from the payroll but if poeple start electing COBRA (that left many months ago) we may have to cut one or two more people.
March 16th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
to Ed:
Don’t you DARE to tell me that I don’t care about my country or the people that are part of it. Unlike you conservatives, I am willing to pay a little more out of my pocket in taxes so that someone doesn’t have to die because they can’t afford medical care.
Bottom line is that, in this country, we shouldn’t have people with no health insurance, or not enough to eat or a place to sleep.
March 16th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
Is there some image Ed and Dan have of everyone in a job in a big company, in a whole and healthy family that comprises the entire country? My young adult children are either self employed or working for small companies. In neither case do they make enough to have ‘coverage’ whatever that means. And we are in the miracle of Massachusetts, where residents are required to buy ‘health’ insurance. So the insurance companies are having a field day, like Wall Street–increases in premiums in the double digits every year with no end in site! And true insurance, i.e. that which covers you in the case of a true catastrophe is insufficient to qualify in Massachusetts!
The system is clearly broken. The drug companies and the insurance companies have had their turn for generations making whopping profits, turning away the riskiest people and denying reimbursement however they can. It’s time to provide everyone with access to medical care, the same kind that veterans, the military, those on Medicare and members of CONGRESS get. (Do you wonder how those in Congress can continue to withhold such medical access for the rest of the country, claiming it would be bad for us? They seem just fine with it.)
March 16th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
Daniel is right. Capitalism has made us what we are today. Broke. Just think how much healthcare
we could buy with all the money that we are using to bail out capitalism. I do believe that comparing
us to Canada, is a bit misleading. The main problem that they have is resources. We have MRI machines on every street corner. They have waiting lists because of limited facilities. We have no such issues. Nobody in the world has the resources that we have when it comes medicine.
March 16th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
I didn’t say that you didn’t care about the Country – I said Country as a whole – If you think socialism is best then move to CUBA or Canada or the like. Have you served this Country in any way? I am tired of all the liberals that “love” their country but do nothing more than talk. Talk is cheap – especially if you seek to demoralize others in hopes of your own gains.
I am sorry that you have had to deal with the terrible situation life has presented to you – but should I lose my home and get government food handouts becuase I can no longer afford my life due to 50% tax rates to help “others” out.
You have no idea how little you pay in taxes. The “rich” top 5% of income earners pay 90% of the taxes ion this Country – try to take more and maybe they’ll leave and start their own little country – then what the hell will you have!
The little bit more you are talking about is actually closer to 35% more! Not a little bit more. I don’t know about you but that increase in taxes will MAKE me dependant on the government – I do NOT want that.
Actually conservatives give more money freely in donations to charitable organizations than do liberals. Liberals believe those that have money should be forced to give it away. After the government wastes 70% of it on all the red tape they create.
Liberals have created cultures of dependency – (Welfare) -
March 16th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Rachel Solem –
Actually you must have missed my post about my small company struggling to keep employees on board. We have 72 employees that is not a big company –
Read before you speak -
March 16th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Oh Ed:
You certainly have an odd view of Liberals.
March 16th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Ms. Solem –
Drug companies must make profits to research new drugs – you have no clue – you are obviously a liberal.
Realize that hard work and heavy personal risk have a reward – and that is called profit.
I am pissed about saving the banks and all of those mortagages – now I and my children will be paying for people to live in much nicer places than I have becuase I bought that which I could afford instead of jumping on sub-prime mortgages and ARMs. I am punished for making a wise decision and making smart choices.
If you want to make money – risk everything you have to start a company, work 100 hours a week to get the company growing spend years risking everything you have to grow the business and employ more people – now have a liberal walk over and say – hey that lady over there dropped out of highschool and had three children before she was 18 and needs food – she doesn’t like to work and can’t even do the simplest of tasks (she’s a drop-out) Give her your money – you have it – it is not fair.
March 16th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
Ed: There are plenty of people out their stuggling through no fault of their own. Get a clue.
March 16th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
It’s good to be generous and willing to pay more out of your pocket to help others. When you force other people to become generous toward a cause you believe in, it is no longer generosity. It is raw force. Government involvement is force.
When two people vote to take something from a third person, because they have more than they do, then it is wrong. When 51% of our people agree to take from 49%, it is still wrong.
By the way, we haven’t had a capitalist system for a long time. The system we have now is tied up with so much in red tape, regulation, permits, litigation, licenses and fees, that free enterprise hardly enters the picture anymore. If you don’t believe me, just try to expand a business by adding on to what you already have. My company spends tens of millions of dollars each year just to get permits/permission to do business.
March 16th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
Really Cindy?
Tell me then – who pushes all of these dependency creating government systems? Who takes money from those that risk all to create a business to give it the less fortunate (by force).
Did you know that MOST charities push for fundrasing in conservative areas – it is not because we have the money (becuase I sure do not) – it is becuase even though I don’t have much money – I will donate. I beleive that it is up the the community and the churches to take care of those in need. You see my donated time is free – I am not a government worker making $38,000.00 per year with all of the other costs associated with an employee. I am free!
I suggest that you realize the government swallows billions in admin costs – that could otherwise be used to help others. Don’t tell me what I should do Cindy – do as I do.
Give freely on your own accord.
March 16th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
Health care is not a right. Rights require action (i.e., life, liberty, private property, pursuit of happiness) and are not subject to the demands of others. When the free market was more involved in health care everyone had coverage either through paying or charity. Many nations with universal healthcare are now rethinking it because the level of care has greatly suffered, innovation is almost nonexistant, and costs are skyrocketing. The citizens of countries with nationalized healthcare pay exorbitant taxes for steadily declining lifestyles. Prices decline with competition (think computers) and health care costs would drop if the government would get out of the way. Their health policies are politically motivated pure and simple.
March 16th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
Cindy –
They have plenty of people struggling in Canada, Europe and other socialist dream places of yours as well – there are homeless, medically uncared for etc. . .
I saw plenty of that while I was stationed in Europe -
March 16th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
I was a military brat, service member, military spouse for the first 30 years of my life. The care I received during that time was awful. I never saw the same doctor twice for anything and had subpar care in many instances. As a civilian, I have had wonderful doctors who have gotten to know me and my family. I can’t help but think a universal health care system would only be the military version magnified.
I have heard lots of negative things from my Canadian friends about their health care system.
I have heard both good and bad things about the different plans in Europe.
Basically, I am against the universal health care but if it becomes a definite thing, I hope they follow the more successful European models than that of Canada.
March 16th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
Ed,
Drug companies are doing just fine with Viagra, Flomax, and all those other drugs of questionable use. They spend relatively little on r & d and plenty on lobbying and advertising.
I am a liberal, as in rational, informed, clear thinking. Using that as a slur, as your wording suggests, is simply ranting. I am also one of those who risked everything, worked 100 hours a week for years, got my company going. Yes, I am a capitalist, and a liberal. So stop that nattering. It makes conservatives look stupid.
I am angry about the banks’ and Wall Street bailouts to. It’s easy to be. I hate to have them take my tax money just as much as you hate to have a single mother tax your tax money. But the bottom line is the total cost of medical care as a portion of our GDP. It’s staggering and only getting higher. How would you solve that problem?
The free market system has not worked in providing medical care. Time to rework it for everyone’s sake.
March 16th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
Here is the bottom line to me … the government is not a revenue generating machine — the only place where the govenrment get money is from LAW ABIDING – TAX PAYING individules. Now-a-days we have the 35% of the people in the USA not even paying any taxes at ALL. The whole reason our country wanted independence from Great Britian was because we were being subjected to taxation without representation – In other words folks over there were making decisions for us over here and we didn’t like it – SO WE STARTED A REVOLUTION. Men fought and died for this – guys like Ed and I have fought for these same rights – I do not want you to think I am a rich guy – I work a job just like some of you – I have a HIGH DEDUCTABLE health insurance plan that means I pay all my expenses out of pocket each year. I would be in a fix is my wife or one of my four kids came down with something serious … BUT YOU KNOW WHAT … I still do not want the govenment involved in health care. As stated in an earlier post – I have also lived around the world – most places folks get cancer and they die – simple as that – sad but true. If I lived there and was in their position I would die too – one of my kids would die. As Americans I am afraid that we have become so used to someone stepping in and bailing us out that we have lost perspective here — I do not want anyone to BAIL ME OUT — if I have to struggle then I will do what every great American should do — dig my way out or die trying. BUT I WILL BE DAMNED IF I WILL LET THE GOVERNMENT BAIL ME OUT or SOLVE MY PROBLEM.
March 16th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
Ms Solem –
Have you ever experienced universal health care?
Have you ever experienced US Military health care (government run)?
Have any of you that are proponents of this universal health care?
March 16th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
As someone who has dual citizenship with the UK and the US and has lived overseas and used both healthcare systems at length, it is barbaric that there are so many in our wonderful country, the greatest on earth, who are without that basic need.
Universal healthcare DOES work, and of course President Obama wise enough to ensure the American version would fit our people’s needs. And, btw, there are many Americans who go to Canada for presciptions, and Canadians are, on the whole, happy with their coverage, I don’t know ONE SINGLE American, insured or not, who is actually happy with their health plan. Nowhere has the perfect plan, and I’m sure there are many who are unhappy elsewhere, but of all my in-laws & friends in Canada are generally satisfied. As I said, I don’t know a single American who is.
As someone with a $8,000 deductible on top of the the money I pay every week, I would be the first to sign up for a universal health plan. I’m also currently expecting, and the worry over that deductible is an unneccesary part of this pregnancy.
Our economy is suffering from an epidemic of people uninsured, so look at the facts yourself, and outside our borders, and realize this is a part of being in a civilized society.
Bravo Obama
March 16th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Socialized medicine does not work. I know people from different countries that have socialized medicine and it takes so long for treatment.
My cousin in Ireland had a stroke and the system waited so long to give him any real treatment and therapy, he will be partially paralyzed the rest of his life.
I know people in Canada and you may have to travel hundreds of miles to see a doctor that can handle your condition, even if it is considered somewhat minor.
I know a surgeon whose Mother lived in England. When she was in the US visiting him, she found a lump on her breast. Within days, she had the lump removed. He was so thankful it was discovered when she was here. If she was at home in England, it would have been a few months before she could have the surgery. Chances are the cancer would have spread.
March 16th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
Very well put, Dan, and I agree with you 100%. I raised 6 kids – my husband and I owned our own business – without health care. We ate good, didn’t smoke and drink to access. Partied very little. Had great outings with the kids —- and if our kids ever got sick, it was a simple cold or something I could take care of myself. (I studied a lot) I took responsibility. We did have one broken arm, but that did not cost nearly as much as 20 years of health insurance would have cost. Now I am 70, very healthy, and no insurance – not if Medicare because I don’t want to be bailed out either. I have had a good life, and if I get something bad, which I doubt, I am ready to meet my maker. I want to LIVE until I die, not be drugged up and cut on and sewnup and strapped down ———No thanks.
March 16th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
As the HR Manager of a Medical Facility I can say honestlly that we take all patients- however the thought of Universal Care is not something we look forward to. The reasons would shock some professionals who are posting- setting aside the hateful names that are being thrown out in place of thoughtful debate the fact is this- When a government takes over an issue like healthcare they are not going to place nurses and physicians in the decision making rolls- although all current forms of government healthcare have medical personell in thier rank and file- the people that make the decisions on what is and what is not covered is, hold on- Congress- That is why as providers we jump through amazing hoops in order to provide not only preventive care but complecated and extended care to those with medical issues like: cancer, HIV, AIDS, COPD. I am not going to appologize for saying to those professionals who think that Universal Care is a great idea you need to set aside your own agenda and honestly look at how these types of systems are failing on a catasrophic level before you allow this current Congress and President to throw a viable and productive healthcare delivery system off a cliff. I am not saying the current system is perfect; however what is being proposed will cost lives.
March 16th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
If any of you think the federal government will make socialistic medicine work – just remember they also run the post office.
March 16th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
The amount of healthcare like any other service that can be delivered in any country is finite. Because of this, it will be “rationed”. Canada and many European countries which have adopted a socialist approach, accomplish this by waiting lists. It often can take months to get an MRI, see a specialist, or get an operation. In fact, many people cannot get certain treatments/operations because they do not qualify based on what the government says is appropriate (i.e. the best use of resources).
One big reason that the US has health insurance (it is really a benefit) is that during WWII, it was illegal to raise wages, so the unions asked, and got health benefits instead of pay increases. Henry Kaiser developed the staff model HMO for his shipyards in So. California to provide this benefit as efficiently as possible. (Sorry for the history lesson).
In the US, we use the capitalist approcah and ration care financially. If you can pay for it (or get the taxpayers to pay though Medicaid and Medicare) you can get the best care in the world. Both systems ration care and I’m not sure which one is better. I do believe that if the US tries to adopt universal healthcare, there will still be people who won’t get the care they need, because of simple economics. There is almost unlimited demand for a limited supply.
March 16th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
I find it tiring that the people against a national health plan constantly point to Canada to back up their opinion, when in fact, many nations have successful national health plans, such as Sweden, Brazil, The Netherlands and Japan.
I support a change because a change is needed. Health Care is broke and it needs to be fixed.
March 16th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
Judy,
I agree that there needs to be change. I am just not convinced that a national, government-run health plan is the best solution.
March 16th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
Many of you proponents of UHC mention successful countries. Did you notice that many of them have less citizens than the State of California? Also, many of those countries are not the lazy, fast food eating 65% obese society like we have in America – You cannot compare the two – compare with a country similar in laziness and obesity as well as population to get a better picture.
March 16th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
Hi!
We already have UH and it is called Medicaid and Medicare and I hear even that does not work very well. Unfortunately these programs are paid for by people who “work”. Lets all stop working and then who will pay? Not a good idea and not possible so get over the fantasy of “universial healthcare.” As long as people and medical instutions and insurance companies and private industry are involved it is only possible in fantasy land. If you want to give up your privacy then support universal health care where ALL of your problems and addictions will be exposed. No doubt the plan will require extensive testing just to “qualify” for this fantasy! (no pre-existing conditions, hahaha) Hello Big Brother, not interested, thanks.
Maybe medicine should stop gouging the American public and charge fair and reasonable prices so we don’t need this additional nightmare of Outrageous and Unnessarry ultra overpriced health services and the accompanying legal jungle that forces one to crawl through the slimey swamps of various coverages just to get reimbursed for insignificant amounts that should be covered by basic plans but instead go to greedy bottomlesspit insurance companies who deny coverage for whatever reason whenever it suits them. Pay out of pocket people!!
S
March 16th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
This partisan bickering is as tiresome on here as it is in the media. Somebody point me to the place in the U.S. Constitution where it says the federal government is responsible for ensuring that every person (or citizen if you wish to get that specific) has health care. Until you can, any proposal by the federal government of universal health care, however well-intentioned, is just wrong.
March 16th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
I am not sure about universal healthcare; but if we had some control on the costs associated with good healthcare, that would be a better solution. The drug companies–look at the cost of some of the medication you are taking–what does it cost to actually produce that med? Doctor’s take a large cut with insurance for a procedure, what they charge vs. what they actually are paid. Tests are a huge cost. How about some controls on the Healthcare industry and insurance companies, such as when a CEO is fired, to pay out a $2.2 Million severace package or incentive gifts that run into the millions of dollars.
March 16th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
I have been the HR manager for my company for 10 years. In this time, our health insuracne costs have rocketed, our plan is now considered a catstrophic plan. The employer cannot not keep paying for high premiums and the staff can’t afford their share. (18%-25%)
I spend hours finding free health care for my staff along with presciption coverage. Sometimes I feel that those without insurance are better off. I think that it is funny that people think just because they have insurance that they can still afford care. I have a HDHP and cannot afford all the tests and drugs that I could be taking.
I have talked to Doctors, Agents, uninsured and insured, employers big and small. And I can tell you with my never ending research that Universal Health Care is not the answer! Yes, our health care system is broken and corrupt. But the universal health care system is broken too. They fly into Wisconsin to go to our Mayo clinics to get the care they need.
It saddens me more then I could ever state on this site. I wish everyone could have health care. My own child cannot afford health insurance but if she was an illigal alian she could go to any emergency room and get free care. All she would have to do is fill out a card that states this.
You can insult everyones reponses if you wish. I think it is great to get everyones feed back. But, as stated above, do your research. We would be better off if they would put restrictions on what Doctors, Hospitals and Drug companies are being allowed to charge. At least start there. Wisconsin is one of the few states that allows people to go to Canada for drugs. Another change that would make a difference.
I don’t have the answer, but neither does our government. They need to start over.
March 16th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
We’re too spoiled; UHC is not going to work. If you think 2-3 days to see a docotr is way too long of a wait, try 2 to 3 weeks!!!! I don’t think so.
March 16th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
My step-father is from Scotland. His parents now live in Canada. I was married to an American military man. I had my first baby in a military hospital, so I have experienced socialized medicine while in Europe. I subsequently married a Brazilian man.
My father, his parents, and I are against universal coverage. Our Canadian relatives come here for care. My step-grandparents, while still in Scotland experienced universal coverage while they lived in a damp, cold, one bedroom apartment with 4 children and no care for her tuberculosis. Now they are in Canada struggling with the government system there.
My husband’s parents know what the Brazilian universal coverage system is like and sent their children to private school and provided private insurance through the business he owned. My husband supports universal health care because he never experienced the life of the poor Brazilian in the favela.
I do not want to wait in a “DMV” type line for my health care or prescriptions. People aren’t happy with HMO’s now, what do they think a government run program will be like? Longer wait times and less communication with their Doctors if they get to see a Doctor and not a PA.
Any time you add the government to the equation, you have more problems than solutions. We need a loosening of the restrictions on purchasing insurance across state lines so people can purchase what they need and not what they feel they don’t need or want. Government has made more of a mess with mandated care than anything else.
We have an abundance of MRI, PET & CAT machines and the best of everything because of free market competition. This causes us to produce and have the best. Our people purchase drugs from Canada because Canada has less restrictions thus less government cost associated with their medications. You can’t get all of the drugs we get in the USA from the Canadian system either as they ration the medications to the members.
We’ll give you a government insurance plan, but if you are 70 years old and need a $150,000 surgery and $1,500 worth of medication each month to keep you alive, you won’t get it. You’ve lived a long life and we have a little kid over here that needs it more than you do although you’ve paid for this care and he and his family haven’t. He will get the surgery…oh and some of the medications, at least until the money runs out of the treasury for this month. Oh, and he will starve while he’s in the hospital because we don’t feed the patients in the hospital. We don’t have the budget to provide food for them past the 15th of the month. Their family needs to bring in food for them to feed them…while they pay 50% in taxes to pay for universal healthcare…and purchase the rest of the meds he needs that the government doesn’t provide.
March 16th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
born and raised in Canada i witnessed what universal health care is all about. a heart attack and bleeding from the jugular just might put you in the front of the line!
get serious folks it is terrible! if you think the red tape is bad now, try and get an okay for treatment under universal health care it is a real eye opener. sorry Judy but Canada is the only place i experienced medical treatment before moving to USA> Universal Health Care (i.e. socialized medicine) makes any HMO plan look like the perfect PPO plan. We have many concerns and hurdles to overcome with our current system. Let’s not go backwards and really screw this country up with Universal Health Coverage.
March 16th, 2009 at 5:05 pm
A few observations on the discussion:
As some have already suggested, UHC can be achieved in several ways – a combination of private and public coverage is compatible with the principle of UHC
I previously worked for an organization with staff in Ontario and Quebec – they were very satisfied with their health coverage and access.
Great Britain devotes only about 7% of GDP to health care compared to about 14% in the U.S. – this is the reason for the problems with access to health services in the U.K. Even under Margaret Thatcher’s government, there was no attempt to replace their system with a private system.
In many European countries and Japan, citizens are satisfied with their health access and care. Japan leads the world in the availability of technology such as CT scanners and MRI machines.
Are all of the critics of government sponsored coverage posting on this blog planning on not enrolling in Medicare when they retire?
March 16th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
Unless you have lived under a “National Health Care” plan, you cannot understand just how bad it would be for this country. When it passed in the UK, doctors immediately took a 50% pay cut. Anyone who can afford private health insurance does so because the system is that bad. Waiting lists for everything (and you hope you don’t die while waiting your turn). No “annual” exams for women, no physicals. And all of the smaller regional hospitals have shut their doors or are in the process of closing. I lived it for four years while in the UK and it’s BAD. And don’t even get me started on how much taxes increased in order to pay for it.
March 16th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
Universal Health Care is a really sweet concept but it shouldn’t take much to realize that it would be a failure in our country. Unfortunately, I have to make this quick but all you need to do is take a look at current government run programs to predict what would happen with a UHC system – Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, the VA, even the damn DMV and our poor public school systems! More importantly, who is going to pay for this health care?? I worked in downtown Los Angeles where the hosptials were overrun with not only people who didn’t have healthcare, but people who weren’t even legal, let alone taxpayers! Why is it fair that the 65% of Americans who are honest taxpayers must continue to be the one’s to contribute. How much more money are we going to continue to feed into a corrupt, disorganized, wasteful government system??
March 16th, 2009 at 6:19 pm
It appears that most responding here are arguing between their current employer paid plan vs. a gov’t plan.
If you are employeed by a large company you probably have a decent plan but most workers in America work for small employers that either have NO plan or a co-pay so high as to exclude most of their lower wage workers.
The argument then is between government insurance vs no insurance.
We will all most certainly pay for a government insurance plan but we are all currently paying for the non-insured right now via higher medical costs past on because un-insured low wage folks can’t pay their bills.
March 16th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
While universal health care may not be the answer, keeping things as they are is not the answer either. Although we have “advanced healthcare” our health outcomes are worse than most industrialized countries while we also pay more for it. The number of un-insured and under-insured citizens is appalling and it will continue to get worse as our population ages. Many of these folks delay or do not seek treatment at all or cut up their pills to try to make things last – they are already rationing care!
We all need to stop the liberal vs conserative name calling and stop focusing only on the two extreme opposites of the health care debate. Unfortunately too many people in leadership positions in our county and even in this thread seem to lost the ability to think consider “compromise” and “negotiation” and what decisions/actions will make things better – and not just for the special interest groups that sit behind all of the politicians. We can all learn from each other and from the experiences (good and bad) of other systems.
March 16th, 2009 at 8:02 pm
Dan, Ed, Larry and Tom. Well said gentleman and some of you gals too!
For those who are so gung ho on universal health care…have none of you heard the Obama administration state people are going to have to accept their old age problems and not expect treatment for them? Excuse me but my mom and dad (and maybe yours) fit in that category and someday I and you will be expected to suffer our old age ailments. And doctors will have to follow strict limits so if the universal health care system says no treatment you won’t be able to get it even if you have the cash to pay for it 100% out of pocket! Canada isn’t an option either!!
Rachel: Medicare is great? Sure, that is why my folks pay their medicare co-pay AND $380.00 a month for supplemental insurance to cover what medicare does not!
Veterans care is great? Sure! That is why I, a disabled vet, can’t get my knee fixed for any of my service related injuries! Yes, my knee is one of the reasons for my getting a disability check! The VA won’t touch it but has said I will eventually need knee replacement! So what if my knee is so screwed up my back, hip and now ankle (all documented victims of my ‘bad’ knee) are involved and by the by I can’t get treatment for them either! The VA is so great that other friends of mine aren’t getting the care they need for their service connected disabilities. I pay for physical therapy out of pocket just so I can get out of bed in the morning and go to work without the shooting pains and my back in the shape of a question mark!!
I was also a victim of the free military health care while on active duty in the USAF and didn’t have a choice of which doctor I saw. The military has some great doctors but you have to go through the quacks to find them. Thanks to military quacks, in a span of 12 months, I had 8 blood transfusions multiple units each ending with a radical hysterectomy at age 24 (a wee bit young don’t you agree?)!
Thanks to military quacks I have a knee that every orthopedic surgeon (22 of them) I have seen since getting out says “it’s screwed up but I ain’t touching it” Thanks to military quacks I have permanent nerve damage in my right wrist which the VA is also not treating! I can’t get my hearing aides even though I’m missing blocks of frequencies due to headset and morse code! Shall I continue that laundry list?
Now I will agree with you that congressional insurance is great! I and most people on this post would love to have that! I mean really any doctor, anytime, anything?! I, other taxpayers, and EVEN CONGRESS knows the taxpayer can’t afford that for everyone. That is why it is a limited universal health care! How secure is your job? Can your boss afford his/her share?
Now, I will say again there are some GREAT doctors in the Military. Unfortunately, the Great ones I stumbled upon too late. Having heard from someone who has experienced and been victimized by this free health care you think is so great I can only hope you rethink your position!
March 17th, 2009 at 6:20 am
to Jo:
Thanks to a “free market” physician, I have had cancer three times and the chances of me beating it have been greatly reduced. The first doctor missed the cancer for TWO years…gave it a chance to go from Stage 0 to Stage 1 and to spread. The second doctor did not give me the proper treatment.
So there is issues in EVERY situation.
March 17th, 2009 at 6:21 am
to Joyce:
If you or your family were ever facing a terminal illness, you may think differently. Don’t think you know if you’ve never been there.
March 17th, 2009 at 6:35 am
I also think that alot of people here are missing the fact that President Obama does not want to take away your employer sponsored health plans. He just wants to have a plan that will give the uninsured health insurance. He has said this MANY times if you’d all just stop being defensive and actually listen to the man.
March 17th, 2009 at 6:47 am
The Goverment has proven they can’t handle universal healthcare already. If you have ever worked in a Hospital, or dealt with Medicaid or Medicare, you will find that the government is trying to outsource these programs.
The government will just outsource to the current greedy insurance companies, and we will then have to pay those same high and increasing premiums via outrageous taxes. The insurance companies still win, and citizens lose. I think I chose the wrong career.
Individual employers understand their individual insurance plans. Employees, sick people, and taxpayers will be happier with healthcare reform, not universal healthcare.
March 17th, 2009 at 7:26 am
If President Obama wants to “give the uninsured health insurance”, he will have to increase taxes, probably by taxing the insurance benefits of those who have health insurance. At that point, I would have to advise my CEO to drop health insurance for our employees. Why pay for something that we being taxed on and that our employees can get from the government? BTW, our health insurance has increased by over 100% in the past 6 years, our deductible has more than doubled and we have a “generic only” drug plan. If our costs continue to go up, we may not be able to continue to provide a health insurance benefit anyway.
March 17th, 2009 at 7:53 am
Exactly Tom –
We are barely holding on to our ability to provide health insurance – I only hope that we do not have too many people take the COBRA premium reduction opportunity – it may cost a couple of jobs – or make us drop our insurance plans at the next renewal date. We are already considering dropping dental insurance to put that money to the medical plan.
I believe that the new administration is looking to be a Socialist society controlled by them. Sure they do not “plan” on taking away employer sponsored health plans – but increasing taxes by billions of dollars just in the health insurance area will inevitably take away our abilities to afford that for our employees. Effectively eliminating them.
The government has screwed up Medicare/ Medicaid, social security retirement system, all veteran’s benefits, our public school systems (ranked very low in the world) – There is one major reason for this – well compensated yet completely unaccountable government workers.
Heck look at the NTSB – at the airports – numerous times they have been tested with fake bombs and numerous times they have missed them or when they found them have LOST them! Want to fly?
March 17th, 2009 at 8:07 am
Had to chuckle at the “choice” – private or universal – the proposal leaves us. Either way, our taxes go up. Take a good look at how unsuccessful the Dirigo plan has been in Maine. All it did was chase most of the insurance companies out of the state (due to the surcharges imposed by the state) and increase contributions by employers. Maine already is heavily taxed due to all of the social programs it offers. There’s a LOT of under the table wage earning because you are too penalized to work “legitimately”. Major brain drain and loss of business because it’s just too expensive to live there anymore.
March 17th, 2009 at 8:19 am
THANK YOU CINDY! These people have been fed fear from the right & swallowed it whole. I have lived with universal coverage and would love to see that AN OPTION here. And also, President Obama has said, “If you like you’re coverage, keep it.” What don’t you understand about that? No one is forcing anyone to take a national plan? Having an epidemic of uninsured is BAD for our common humanity, BAD for our economy. It’s a simple thing. I just have no tolerance for ignorance, and that’s what is repeated over & over in this discussion. Fear & ignorance, and I had enough of that over the past 8 years to last a lifetime. I LOVED my doctor in England. I always was seen when I was sick, no problem. I can’t get an appointment with my PCP here! Please, go rent “Sicko” by Michael Moore, obviously he has an agenda but it still brings many valid points & truths.
March 17th, 2009 at 8:26 am
Guy states “I learned that 62% of Americans favor Universal Healthcare”. According to HR Morning’s survey only 32% are in favor of it.
March 17th, 2009 at 8:26 am
Emily –
If it is so Utopian in England and Hell here – why are you still here?
Please – if you think for a minute that employer sponsored health plans will be able to hold up when the new massive tax increases hit then you obviously do not manage your company’s health benefits. Our current President is masking that fact that the policies he is recomending and wants to implement will drive out employer sponsored health plans – sure you can keep it – until it disappears from policy based factors.
I find it amazing that a handful of people say how much they “love” other countries and think it is terrible here – yet – they remain here!
Things that make me go Hmmmmm -
March 17th, 2009 at 8:37 am
Cindy, when you lived in the UK, were you a citizen paying UK taxes or an American on assignment there? There is a huge difference.
You were also fortunate to have had a good doctor that could see you quickly and provided services. I, too, had a good doctor when I lived there but he made it clear that he could only do so much with the restrictions the government placed on him PLUS he was only allotted 7 minutes per patient on average. I recall one scary event when our curling team’s skip had a heart attack on the ice and it took almost an hour for the ambulance to come. The paramedics said that if we had been in a more urban area, he would have died for lack of hospital beds in the NHS system. And my landlord had to be on a wait list for over 7 months for a quadruple by-pass (he was literally gray by the time he went in).
Any time the government gets involved, it costs more and the quality of service declines. We’ll also lose talent going into the system – who in their right mind wants to work in even more of a red-tape environment with little opportunity to make a good living? The real talent will continue to go into private practice that at some point only the elite (like our congressmen/women) will be able to afford to see.
March 17th, 2009 at 8:38 am
Emily (or was it Cindy – I’m so sorry I’ve lost track of the posts), when you lived in the UK, were you a citizen paying UK taxes or an American on assignment there? There is a huge difference.
You were also fortunate to have had a good doctor that could see you quickly and provided services. I, too, had a good doctor when I lived there but he made it clear that he could only do so much with the restrictions the government placed on him PLUS he was only allotted 7 minutes per patient on average. I recall one scary event when our curling team’s skip had a heart attack on the ice and it took almost an hour for the ambulance to come. The paramedics said that if we had been in a more urban area, he would have died for lack of hospital beds in the NHS system. And my landlord had to be on a wait list for over 7 months for a quadruple by-pass (he was literally gray by the time he went in).
Any time the government gets involved, it costs more and the quality of service declines. We’ll also lose talent going into the system – who in their right mind wants to work in even more of a red-tape environment with little opportunity to make a good living? The real talent will continue to go into private practice that at some point only the elite (like our congressmen/women) will be able to afford to see.
March 17th, 2009 at 8:48 am
Cindy- I have actually been listening to President Obama. I clearly remember him saying he would line item all “pork” in the stimulus packages and have transparency to the American people. To date, he has not done either one of those things. In my eyes his credibility is non-existent.
March 17th, 2009 at 8:49 am
Ed — As I said earlier, in my first post, I still believe we are the greatest country on earth, and my family, friends, job, house – all here. When did I ever say it was hell here? I DIDN’T. Doesn’t mean we are perfect and the fact is our health system is very flawed. That was such a stupid comment, I can’t even believe it.
And Linda, I am a dual citizen, and have happily paid taxes willingly as such in both the US & UK because that is what being a citizen in a civilized country entails. We can all trade horror stories from every country and every healthcare system, it’s all besides the point.
Do you guys really and truly have a problem with every American having access to healthcare? Why would you be against that? Obama’s plan is not even as radical as you make it out, or as extreme as in Europe. It wouldn’t change your current coverage if you are happy with it. And most Americans are getting a tax break either way. So why do you hate the idea of any sick person in our WONDERFUL country having access to care?
I just don’t get the fear…
March 17th, 2009 at 8:53 am
Emily:
My doctor was going to make me wait three weeks to get a biopsy…do you know what that would have done to me mentally? Luckily, my wonderful plastic surgeon said he’d do it for me within days.
So you don’t ALWAYS get a quick appointment. THe system is broke and someone has to fix it.
Oh and by the way to the person who had a relative who had to wait for cancer surgery, I waited over two months for surgery for breast cancer….so that happens here also. Don’t preach to the choir.
March 17th, 2009 at 8:54 am
Ed:
You REALLY are ridiculous. If you don’t like the way President Obama is governing our country…we’ll I guess you can leave also.
March 17th, 2009 at 8:57 am
Linda:
When did I say I had a GOOD doctor. He didn’t read my mammogram report so my cancer grew for TWO MORE YEARS. He may have taken years off of my life.
March 17th, 2009 at 8:59 am
What I have a problem with entitlements and hand outs. I have no problem with “helping hand”. Also, it’s a matter of level of “sickness” or injury and what the contributing factors are. Why do I have to pay out of my pocket for someone else’s bad habits? So, I guess my response would be “it depends on the circumstances”.
And as far as keeping current coverage – I will go back to the Dirigo plan in Maine. Even if an employer offered medical insurance to it’s employees, they were also forced to contribute at least 4% additional to the state fund to coverage the cost of universal health care (which very few Mainers took).
How do you figure we are getting a tax break? You’ve lost me on that one.
March 17th, 2009 at 9:08 am
It is not fear but a clear perception of reality –
The government has never handled anything well in this area – can you point to one true successful government venture?
I do have a problem with the government taking from me to give to others – I do that on my own becuase I want to – I donate several hundred hours of my time to fundraisers – I am involved with several charity organizations (personally – not business) and I donate skills and talents of mine becuase I have very little money and cannot afford all the medication I need.
The problem with the government stealling (through legal channels) from the rich to give to the poor is that the poor have no incentive to do anything – to improve their lives. And YES for many of them it is their fault! I grew up in low income housing – neighborhoods filled with gun violence and gangs. I did not want that for myself or my future family – I joined the Army served during the first Gulf war and worked hard to make it through college (first in my family) – I always pushed myself to rise above my surroundings of government dependence and lack of motivation or drive – I then took many loans to get through Graduate School.
I did it with hard work – it would have been easy to not marry my wife – crank out a couple of kids and suck up welfare and food stamps with tax payer assisted rent subsidies and now free medical care – the government teet is overflowing these days.
March 17th, 2009 at 9:10 am
Cindy –
I fought for this Country – ready to lay my life down for it.
Did you?
March 17th, 2009 at 9:16 am
Where are you Cindy –
Are you willing to lay your life down for The United States of America?
March 17th, 2009 at 9:21 am
I did not want to mention the failure to line item the pork – or increase the transparency – yet. I want to give him more time to complete at least one of his many campign promises.
Are MY fellow brothers in arms home yet?
March 17th, 2009 at 9:23 am
Cindy –
Willing or not?
March 17th, 2009 at 9:25 am
to Ed:
WHat does giving up my life have to do with health care?
March 17th, 2009 at 9:33 am
To Ed:
My husband, brother, father and a multitude of my family were willnig to lay down their life for this country. My husband, brother and father are all Obama supporters and never agreed with this war in Iraq. All of them fought in wars.
You may find this unpatriotic but I am a mother first. I would lay down my life for my children/family. I love my country. I’m not sure I could ever convince you of this so why try. You have one mind set and you won’t even consider another.
BTW—This has nothing to do with health care.
March 17th, 2009 at 9:33 am
About 90% of Americans do get a tax break under the Obama plan. An uninsured America is bad for the economy – people loose their homes over unforseen and non preventable diseases. The misuse of the emergency room costs all of us. Providing heathcare to the uninsured is financially beneficial to tax payers.
And the health plan offered would match what the members of Congress/The Senate have themselves. As someone who does have a comprehension of benefits, it’s a very simple equation – the more people under a plan, the lower the cost. That’s why bigger corporations, witha bigger pool, have it easier to get coverage for their workers than small businesses.
Taxes are nothing new, and quite frankly, Ed, I find a lot of the American government’s ventures are a success, including the USA itself. Would you prefer anarchy? Of course not. Thank you for defending our country. I found it disheartening that so much tax money went to fund the last Iraq war, without enough benefits to our brave men & women who we sent in harm’s way, who went out of duty, into a situation that was unneccesary.
We all want is best for our nation as a whole. And I suppose we disagree what that may be. But a lot of this is old fear & propaganda. It’s the 21st century, and it is time for change.
March 17th, 2009 at 9:35 am
It has to do with loving your Country – and asking that I leave it.
I will not turn my back on this Country or our President just because I do not like his direction. Unlike ALL of the liberals I worked with a few years back that “Promised” they would move to Canada if President Bush won a second election. Guess what – they all whined and griped but never left – called our President evil names and disrespected him greatly.
That is where much of my discord towards liberals comes from – I respect the Office of the President regardless of how I personally see the policies – he was elected – he is my President.
Did you say that any of the last 8 years? – I highly doubt it – but maybe you did.
Obviously you value your life more than you value the US – not I.
March 17th, 2009 at 9:35 am
Ed – folks like those in favor of Universal Health care fail to realize what that means — they hear “government hand out” and they blindly jump in line without realizing the cost or who is paying for it. I would also venture to say that anyone saying willingly “hey raise my taxes – I am ok with it” well they either do not pay taxes (like most of Mr. Obama cabinet nominations so far) or are just plain ignorant. Either way – the few who actually take the time and understand what this administration is doing to our counrty and crying from the mountain tops are called “conservative wackos”. The data is overwhelmingly in our favor that government social programs and redistribution of wealth has and ALWAY will fail – Keep up the fight sir – those of us who understand do have your six! GO ARMY!
March 17th, 2009 at 9:39 am
to Ed:
There really isn’t any talking to you. So we will agree to disagree and leave it at that.
March 17th, 2009 at 9:40 am
Toi DAn:
THe “trickle down” theory did not work either. So what’s the answer?
March 17th, 2009 at 9:41 am
Emily –
Thank you – I understand and wantsomething to change – trust me I am going without medications that I need – but UHC will not work.
Can any proponent of UHC point to a country very similar in size, economy style and many other important points that has a successful UHC plan?
March 17th, 2009 at 9:43 am
Cindy –
I do want to say that I am very sorry regarding the medical ordeal that you have been dealing with and that your family has had to deal with. I had a step mother that died from cancer – it is a tough battle.
Do take care of yourself and family – I wish you the best.
March 17th, 2009 at 9:50 am
The views expressed here seem to be missing the point. America can no longer afford our current healthcare program, which has proven extremely costly and short on the delivery of healthcare to all our citizens. The apochraphal stories about national healthcare programs in Canada or Europe do not change the fact that millions of Americans have no health coverage and many millions more are underinsured. Very bright people in our Government are on the threshold of tackling this problem and will need help and input as they work to develop a new system for us. We can be a valuable resource for them, so communicating your thoughts and recommendations to the President and to our Senators and Representatives in Congress is a worthwhile endeavor.
As a different perspective, my own view is that if Canadians or Brits or Japanese etc were really so universally against their Countries’ national health care programs, we would have seen changes over the intervening 40 to 50 years that those programs have been in existence. Also, I know that America’s system is rated # 1 worldwide in cost but somewhere around 16th in terms of health care delivery to its people by the UN World Health Organization. I don’t think any of us think that is a good story.
So we need to find a new model that will accomplish a host of objectives that include but are not limited to:
*bringing healthcare coverage to all Americans
*making American busuiness more competitive on the international scene by leveling the health care cost “playing
field” vs Japan, Korea, Taiwan, France, Germany, Italy, China, etc.
*putting the healthcare decision making back into the hands of medical professionals (not utilization review clerks).
*ballancing the interests of Drug Companies with the wellfare of the general population.
*etc.,etc.,etc.
Bringing new ideas and divergent viewpoints to the debates, that are sure to come, is the best way to find a solution to the current mess. My only recommendation is that we listen to one another and try to avoid the type of polemic that shuts off good exchanges.
Finally, with respect to Government run programs, I would suggest that we consider the success of Medicare for the elderly in our society as at least one model that works as the debate unfolds. Private health insurance companies have tried to break into that arena but have had little success. Perhaps we can look to this dynamic to see if there are ways to build a new way of handling healthcare for all Americans.
The Best to you all,
Jay
March 17th, 2009 at 9:51 am
Thank you, Jay. Very well said.
March 17th, 2009 at 9:52 am
Cindy – the answer is work for and pay for what you and afford. If we did not pay the taxes we pay in this country we would all be better off — at least those of us who get up, lace up and show up. For those who don’t work — well again – if we paid no taxes maybe we could afford to invest in growth and the economy would be creating jobs not losing it by 600,000 a month. Like a gentleman pointed out yesterday — health care is not an entitlement — it is a benifit. Do we want the govenment to buy our auto insurance too, what about of life insurance – Where will this stop?
March 17th, 2009 at 9:58 am
How DARE you compare auto insurance to health insurance? What is wrong with you?!? LIFE and the maintainence of quality and health is what we are talking about, and I don’t think it’s a benefit, but an entitlement that CAN be provided to each of us.
You know what, I’m out of this discussion.
Good luck to all of you.
March 17th, 2009 at 10:03 am
Dan:
Believe me, I get as angry as the next guy when I see someone who refers to their Welfare check as their “paycheck”. I’ve worked since I was 16. I have a friend, although I love her to death, I don’t respect her as I should because she has NEVER held a job. Has lived off welfare and now social security and there isn’t a reason WHY she cannot work. I worked through cancer treatment and while raising my children.
I just feel that EVERY person has the right to health care. I lost mine one time during a lay off and could not afford COBRA. The subsidy would have been a great thing for me at the time. I was back at a new job within 9 months and had health care again. So why is it so bad to help someone who is temporarily down on their luck? That said, I don’t agree with career welfare recipients. I feel that they should be giving back SOME HOW? Community Service? Cleaning our roadways? Helping at days cares to help families who ARE working. Most of the social programs need restructured so it’s less of a “hand out’ situation.
March 17th, 2009 at 10:07 am
Cindy –
We may not agree on UHC – but we agree on your other points in your last post.
March 17th, 2009 at 10:14 am
Cindy, Your case is exactly why I contribute to charitable causes and would be one of my “depends upon the circumstances” as to why someone should receive care at taxpayer (or church or some other foundation) expense. We have created generations of individuals who know nothing other than hand-outs/welfare and feel entitled without any accountability in return. They suck the system dry. If they spent half as much energy working as a contributing member of society as they do trying to game the system, we’d be in far better shape.
I still do not believe in UHC. I believe in the goodness of my fellow human beings when someone is truly in need. I do NOT believe it should be dictated by the government or pulled out of my pocket.
March 17th, 2009 at 10:15 am
Emily – If you lived in West Africa and you got cancer — guess what — you would have NO OPTIONS. Just because we live in the United States that gives us the entitlement to health care — not on my dime — sorry if you don’t like the thought but so be it – if I can afford treatment when I get sick then I seek treatment – if not then I don’t run to the guy next door and ask for his checkbook. Just because we don’t literally have to do that in this country don’t mistake it – THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING.
Cindy – I truly will keep you and you family in my prayers. Even though we do not see eye to eye on these issues I wish you no harm in any way — good luck to all!
Enjoyed the discussion!
March 17th, 2009 at 10:29 am
Dan, one last thing – I hope your ignorance is bliss. Learn something about common humanity, and also about West Africa (which has a many countries, of varying wealth and circumstance, and they do, in fact, have doctors and medical care, if you can believe it, so of course there are options). You are truly a fool.
And again, people, having a system that would help insure the uninsured is financially BENEFICIAL overall to us. We are not talking welfare and handouts, no one backs career welfare recipients. We all work hard. Sometimes, even when you work hard and live a healthy lifestyle, disasters can strike. People are getting laid off in huge numbers and are down on their luck. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be able to see a doctor if they, or their children, are ill. You are all off the track at this point. I work hard and pay my taxes and pay an extraordinary amount weekly to an insurance company to cover my husband and I that profits financially, yet I still will am facing an $8,000 deductible, an added stress in my pregnancy. Am I irresponsible? No. Human? Yes. Do I work hard? Pay taxes? Of course. Do I want to steal or want to steal from my neighbor? No. So what are you talking about?!
As I said, good luck to all of you. Dan, please go learn something about the world today.
March 17th, 2009 at 10:34 am
Emily – your inability to seperate fact from emotion is evident, I need say no more.
March 17th, 2009 at 10:37 am
And your ignorance is evident, so what’s the point?
March 17th, 2009 at 10:37 am
Emily, you say no one support career welfare receipients but where do you draw the line on who receives healthcare and at what levels. And how do you hold those who abuse their bodies (smoking, for example) accountable?
March 17th, 2009 at 10:40 am
Dan:
I’m sure Emily is stating fact. Believe or not, Dan, you do NOT know every thing about everyone’s situation.
March 17th, 2009 at 10:40 am
Emily –
I just want to ask how taxing the working people more is beneficial to us? The less I have to spend (truly on food and mortagage, medications and school fees) the less I can purchase – this means that less has to be made, shipped and sold. I do not see how it would be financially better.
Can you explain – I would really like to know – because if I am wrong I would like to know it.
March 17th, 2009 at 10:43 am
Linda, I think ALL children in this country should be covered, no question, for starters. I am happy we have moved in that direction.
Thanks, Cindy. I’m not sure what Dan could even point to as where I state anything other than fact.
March 17th, 2009 at 10:43 am
Linda –
Do not forget alcohol, drugs, obesity (yes some are not at fault I know that) and pure sloth.
March 17th, 2009 at 10:43 am
Linda:
Accountable for WHAT? Anyone can get sick and everyone needs healthcare. I live a healthy life style and STILL have a chronic illness. My mother who smokes like a fiend is 80 years old and still kicking. Living a healthy life style is smart but it has no guarantees. There are alot of people out there who can attest to that. So you are saying my mother doesn’t deserve health care because she smokes?
March 17th, 2009 at 10:46 am
Cindy and Emily — I bow to your surerior intellect on these issues – now – I need to get back to work to pay my TAX BURDEN and YOUR HEALTH CARE!
March 17th, 2009 at 10:51 am
Because, Ed, we all ARE paying the price of the uninsured in a down economy where foreclosures and subsequent loss of home value is coming, in part, from people who went bankrupt over medical bills. Businesses are having a tough time paying their share of health benefits, which causes them to loose profits, and then have to loose workers. Where then there is less of a tax pool and more of a tax burden (unemployment, etc). It’s a very complicated web of connection. Also, the misuse of the Emergency Room, where uninsured bring their children for simple illnesses that should be handled by PCPs ends up getting funded, in partm by taxes. Its actually a very complicated intertwined mess.
March 17th, 2009 at 10:53 am
Linda never said that they do not deserve health care – she asked about accountability.
Here is an example of government expenditure and lack of accountability –
Mountain climbers – choose to go out climbing and go missing – up to a million plus dollars are spent looking for them. I think life is prescious but they chose a dangerous activity with great risk – I did not require them to do that nor did anyone else.
Same goes for overeating, smoking, alcohol, drugs and sloth. They are choices!
Alcoholism runs in my family – so I choose to have never had a single drink in my life. I made the smart choice to not tempt fate. Why can’t others.
People who choose activities known to be a health risk – would increase the costs in my life when I forgo the “pleasures” of life in order to avoid those possible ill effets.
March 17th, 2009 at 10:58 am
It’s actually pretty shocking how relatively little it would cost the government to insure the uninsured. And Obama is looking for the tax to come from our wealthiest, which I know does not include me, and I’m assuming would not include anyone on this post
March 17th, 2009 at 11:05 am
You just prooved my point –
Businesses can barely afford healthcare for their employees raising their taxes will cost both the healthcare plans and more employees.
Believe me – the uninsured costs to us are nominal compared to the costs of the baeurocracy that it will take to run a UHC system.
Can you tell me what Medicaid pays doctors? When I was in the behavioral health care field for 4.5 years many doctors found it difficult to take on Medicaid patients and I asked them why – they are paid 10% of U&C. How willing would you be to do a portion of your work for only 10% of your pay?
So what – home values are overinflated – so they drop back into a more normal range! Foreclosures – most of them are due to the sub-prime mortgage issue and ARMs – (choices). I got a home that I could afford with no smoke and mirrors – now I am paying money so that others can live in a bigger and better home than I do.
Higher taxes like in my home state of Wisconsin drives out businesses – causes brain drain – costs jobs. They have even doubled our vehicle registration fees, hunting fees, garbage collecting fees -
March 17th, 2009 at 11:07 am
My mother pays 13% of her monthly income for her medicare coverage which leaves her struggling to pay her heating costs, electricity and other bills. She than does without medical care becasue she cannot afford her co-pays. This is a government run program which is not working. What makes anyone think the governemnt will do better with a universal healthcare.
March 17th, 2009 at 11:08 am
I wonder what would happen if the “weathliest” Americans (top 5% of wage earners) left the country – bought an island somewhere and just said he hell with it.
90% of income taxes would disappear
March 17th, 2009 at 11:10 am
The biggest cost in the budget would NEVER be healthcare. It’s such a low percentage compared to other things, like the military, etc. And I actually do work in healthcare myself. Privately held insurance companies are evil and I wish they paid what they should, they use every excuse to expand their own profits, it’s criminal.
And small business would benefit without the burden of supplying their workers with healthcare. They would save.
March 17th, 2009 at 11:12 am
How much tax burden are you proposing to levy on the “wealthy”? Who is going to be willing to start a business or purchase big-ticket items (yes, to keep other businesses in business or Americans employed) if there is a penalty for making a success of yourself. Case in point. One year, Maine decided that they were going to charge a luxury tax for the high-end luxury boats which were a booming, thriving business in some coastal communities. Guess what? Those who would normally have purchased those boats (i.e. “wealthy” individuals) decided the price was now too steep and went to either another state/country or bought second hand. In no time at all, an entire industry (as well as true craftsmen) were out of business. How can we all be so short-sighted?
On another note, how much “playing God” are we going to be in all of this health care mess? How much prolonging of life, or going to the nth degree. Who gets to make the decisions for who gets what and how much? How about plastic surgery (I could build a case that it might be necessary for self-esteem purposes)?
March 17th, 2009 at 11:15 am
Ed – where is John Galt?
Anyone ever read Atlas Shrugged?
March 17th, 2009 at 11:16 am
Emily – you said there are millions of uninsured and underinsured Americans. What 3-4 million?
lets just say 3 mil – multiply that time the premium that your company pays for you – what do you get –
very likely 1.2 billion per month! That is not relatively little. Or 14.4 billion per year – now add the pay and benefits of the thousands and thousands of government employees that will determine weather or not you get the care.
What if it is 5 million that need the UHC now we are talking about nearly 30 billion per year.
Yeah sure relatively little.
March 17th, 2009 at 11:17 am
Ed,
The richest 5-10% would NOT leave this country if taxes went up, because they know how much this system allows them to be safe and make money. There are plenty of reasons to be grateful for what the USA provides. Leaving the country is not an option for many of us at all levels of income, so stop going on about that inane ‘choice.’
March 17th, 2009 at 11:23 am
John Galt – a ficticious individual in a novel. OK –
Explain the major decline in Wisconsin’s population in the demos that matter for tax base purposes (those that pay versus those that take) as the taxes are raised year after year. Too much more in taxes and I will move out of my home state – I will not be able to afford living here. Guess what – my taxes will be paid somewhere that takes less from me to give to others.
March 17th, 2009 at 11:23 am
Linda:
You try living without a breast and see how it effects YOUR self esteem and mental health. Doesn’t feel good feeling like a freak. So plastic surgery, to me, is essential sometimes. Thank, God for Bill Clinton who mandated that health insurance has to cover reconstruction after a mastectomy.
March 17th, 2009 at 11:25 am
Ed, Ed, Ed… that’s not how it works. The more people are in a package the less cost per person because the more likelihood of general good health, therefore, less cost. That’s why people who work for smaller comapnies, like myself, get hit hard if coworkers are ill, which happened to us last year. But in big companies it can be absorbed much easier. I’m in NY, my mom works for the State, her insurance has a big pool, so it’s awesome. Not too much cost to her or the state compared to mine, in a privately owned business. The more people, the better the price, actually.
March 17th, 2009 at 11:30 am
I **think** it works out to like $5.00 the avergae taxpayer per year to insure the currently uninsured. Something really not that bad.
March 17th, 2009 at 11:33 am
Cindy – please be reasonable. I am NOT talking about reconstructive plastic surgery. I’m referring to someone wanting enhancements. On the other hand if I have to make a choice (because the insurance will only pay for one surgery) between having a breast because of “self-esteem” or not having one in order to survive, I totally know I’m going to live without the breast.
I am NOT going to get into a political debate about so-called “heroes”.
March 17th, 2009 at 11:37 am
Linda:
WHo are you referring to as heros?
March 17th, 2009 at 11:38 am
Linda –
Lighten up a bit on Cindy – ok not a bit but quite a lot! – You could never imagine what she is going through and what thousands of women go through. Talk is cheap – telling her what you would do – when you have not been in that unimaginable place.
Cindy – I agree that reconstructive surgery such as that – is in my opinion neccessary.
March 17th, 2009 at 11:47 am
I will stick with my original opinion in that I would be ok with reconstructive surgery. And I would also be ok with it should it correct something that significantly affects someone’s quality of life (like a cleft palate). Never said otherwise. However – IF it came down to having to make a choice on only one surgery, I know what that choice would be. What about amputees? They might get prosthetics but it’s not the same as actually replacing a body part.
I would also caution that you have no idea (because I have chosen not to share) what my own situation has been. I do know that I do not go around asking people to feel sorry for me (and please, I am not referring to Cindy with that comment) in order to get a handout (or a bail out). I am accountable for my own choices.
March 17th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
We have to remember that “change” does not always equal “better.”
Just because there is an alternative in front of us looming larger than life, does not guarantee that it will be better than what we have right now. Don’t think that there is only one option out there and THIS is it. I agree that health care needs fixing and it needs to be affordable, but putting its control into the hands of the government might be kind of like giving assistance to AIG in hopes of a great turnaround that will then help all of the businesses and individuals who work with AIG. Or, GM. Or……….
It will likely require a lot of masterminds to keep health care privitized yet working as it should. Accountability and greater controls will need to be in place to make sure that health care does not allow for someone in the middle becoming filthy rich unnecessarily. Change is needed, but government oversight isn’t more effective than the right individuals with the right resources in place from the private sector. If we really want medical help to get to the individuals who need it, fix it but keep it in the private sector.
March 17th, 2009 at 2:20 pm
Has the government EVER handled anything well? Which government agency do you want controlling your health care? Hey, let’s hope it is run like FEMA! They did such a good job with Hurrican Katrina relief! Or maybe it can be run like the Finance office…our economy sure is cooking along well right now! I know! let’s run it like they do Social Security! That has been a great success! All you idiots, and yes I mean IDIOTS, that want to had even more control of your private lives over to the government better think long and hard first…maybe actually do a little research…before you sell your souls to the devil! Once the government takes this power from you, you will never get back, no matter how bad the system they provide you with is! Nothing is FREE, and we will all pay a very dear price for the stupidity of the masses if this goes through.
March 17th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
Health care is a service not a right. As with any service the more you have competition the better and cheaper the service. If the government had run the computer industry few could afford a computer now and the ones in the market would be overpriced and subpar. It is exactly the same with health care. You have to get the government out of the picture before you can get the best care in the world. The market now is pretty much under the Fed’s thumb-they make the rules and set the payments. If you think it is bad now wait until they have complete control. We will all have equally poor quality treatment, no one will want to become a physician because you won’t be able to make a living, taxes will be exorbitant to support universal coverage, etc.
Bush, Pelosi, Obama are all politicians in the worst sense. None of them protects individual rights since they all believe in some sort of collective society. Always remember capitalists don’t need socialists, but socialists can’t exist without capitalists from whom they can steal time, money, property.
March 17th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
Jim,
Your insult is out of line. It shows an emotional lack of control and poor judgemment. I trust that you are much more professional in your day to day work activities.
With respect to your opinions, I agree with one – FEMA. Concerning the others, I don’t know what the “Finance Office” is. It is not an agency of government with which I am familiar. If, however, you are making reference to the unfolding catastrophe in our economy, I would suggest that there is a two part problem there. First, in this recent era of deregulation, Government agencies such as the SEC and the Treasury Department’s banking oversight operation were severely limited by statutory and administrative restrictions put on them by both Presidents and a compliant Congress since the mid ’80’s. So government bureaucrats, in agencies that had done excellent work for the previous 50 years, were restrained from exercising the oversight that many people are now calling for a return to. Second, I submit that runaway greed and questionable practices on Wall Street and in the Banking sector have driven the chaos we are now facing. And finally, based on former President Bush’s unsuccessful efforts to change Social Security, it is a safe bet that Americans want no part of changing the most successful government program in our history, despite what the revisionist talking heads in the media are saying.
With respect to the healthcare debate that is underway, you may want to apologize for your intemperate insult to all those with whom you disagree. In a free exchange of ideas, mutual respect and civility are essential. Please try to avoid insulting others who have expressed a viewpoint that differs from your’s.
Jay Corbett
March 18th, 2009 at 6:06 am
To Jim:
Name calling is just SOOO professional. Is this how you handle your employees at your company? Heaven help them.
March 18th, 2009 at 6:08 am
To Frances:
I haven’t seen the competition bring down prices yet. They keep going up and up and you get less and less and have to fight harder to get services covered.
March 18th, 2009 at 6:10 am
To Jay:
Great Post.
March 18th, 2009 at 9:47 am
I do not appreciate people who live in the States – and not in Canada stating their system is terrible – for instance having to wait long periods of time for surgery. My entire family lives is Canadian and lives there. I have dual citizenship and I live in the States and have insurance through my employer. Several family members of mine have had to have surgery in the past 5 years. The longest wiat for surgery was 3 weeks. You wait that long here, also. I lived there for many years and enjoyed the benefit of quality health care as do many relatives and friends still. Yes – the taxes are higher, but to have free quality healthcare and go to College for little or nothing, it is worth it. Here, in the states, we have people struggling to make ends meet and even if their employer offers it, often the employee cannot afford their portion. I, for one support National Healthcare and hope before our President is done that he is able to bring it into play.
March 18th, 2009 at 9:52 am
Having children and grandchildren that live in Canada with the socialistic health care I for one can say I do NOT want it in the U.S. They are taxed over 40% for their FREE health care and when they go to the Dr. they get 5-10 minutes to be seen and if surgery is needed you could die waiting for your turn, so they come to the U.S.
March 18th, 2009 at 9:55 am
to Mitzi:
Thanks for the first hand information.
March 18th, 2009 at 9:58 am
I was on the fence about this until this morning.
My son blew out his knee last night. I called to get him into our orthopedic and was told there is an outstanding balance from 2003 (for surgery on this other knee,)which was turned over to collection. They will not see him until this is paid. He was 14 in 2003. This bill should not be in his name. He was covered under my insurance.
So while I try to straighten this out with them, here he sits needing medical attention.
Good thing he now works at a hospital.
March 18th, 2009 at 10:09 am
People – you must remember that the population of Canada is LESS than that of California by itself – The Canadian population is about 10% of the US population.
While ten times the population does not transfer into a tenfold cost diference or a tenfold increase in wait times it is a much greater cost and increase to waiting times.
Cindy – you mentioned (much earlier) that more people means kless risk therefore lower costs – that only works with insurance pools – NOT a self funded insurance as a UHC plan is.
A UHC works as a pay as it occurs – just like a fully self funded company does.
March 18th, 2009 at 10:12 am
to Pat:
Honestly, you can hear horror stories no matter where you live. I have also had problems with wait time and having lousy doctors here in the states. Some people just don’t want to hear it or believe it.
Sorry to hear about your son.
Ed: That must of been someone else who said that..Emily maybe.
March 18th, 2009 at 10:13 am
Thank you for further first hand information – Fran.
Pat – how can you blame the medical facility for you letting a bill go unpaid and going to collections – you now wanting a UHC just tells me that you want others to pay for your families care.
By the way I hope the insurance company gets it head ourt of its A$$ and treats your son – it is you they have the beef with.
March 18th, 2009 at 10:19 am
Sorry Cindy – I thought it was you – I apologize.
Wow I did my last post way to quick – the grammar is terrible as is my spelling. Yikes!
March 18th, 2009 at 10:26 am
I really don’t mean to be harsh here but am also looking at accountability and how this snowballs to affect everyone.
Regarding the orthopedic surgeon – administrative errors do happen (unfortunately) but can be corrected (I’ve typically been able resolve most of my issues within 24 hours which I suppose I should knock wood for). If something had been turned over to the collection agency, typically the individual would have received multiple notices of late charges prior to that. So, is it the insurance agency or doctor at fault or the individual? And then when it’s needed, the care isn’t there because of . . ? Still not a reason to impose UHC across the board. And also no guarantee that the care for the knee would have been “good” or timely.
My experience with UHC over a four year period was not good and know just how expensive the taxes can become as a result. Regarding an earlier post – the reason it is difficult to overturn such social programs is that there is an incentive to keep them in place. Look at most European countries – their unemployment is far higher than the US. All of those unemployed individuals live off the system (the Brits call it the “dole”).
March 18th, 2009 at 10:42 am
Ed,
The bill was paid. That is what I am upset about. I would know if it had been turned over to collections.
March 18th, 2009 at 10:46 am
Now that really sucks –
Now you gotta find out how you paid and get proof that they received payment – What a dang headache –
I hope you get it straightened out.
March 18th, 2009 at 11:59 am
I have to say there is a lot of misunderstanding about the Obama plan – his vision is NOT a UHC plan as in Europe, Canada, etc.
Please, take a few minutes and read this – it breaks it down quickly & easily.
http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/issues/HealthCareFullPlan.pdf
And the large pool would make less expensive (Obama had mentioned that himself a couple of months ago).
Please read this before jumping to conclusions and comparisons that are distracting and misleading.
March 18th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Emily – how does Mr. Obama purpose to pay for this Health Care plan of his?
March 18th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
I understand the skepticism of politician promises, but honestly, President Obama has so much more transparency than we have seen in a very, very, very long time (or ever). I’m sorry I can’t get into the specifics right now, but if you take the time to go to his web page, he outlined everything, including how he plans to fund his ideas to ultimately help our country.
Lots of tax payer money gets wasted on lots of silly things, we all know that, and I would never argue otherwise. And I was a little disappointed with some of the “pork” in the stimulus bill, but there are a LOT of very good things in there as well, including the move towards electronic HIT systems, which will save money as well as make patients safer.
So please, even with taken with a grain of salt, take a serious look at his vision and plans, it’s truly not as “bad” or extreme as many are assuming.
March 18th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Oh it sounds so wonderful and someone else is going to pay for it.
Reality check. Every government program ends up costing a whole lot more than promised, and what we get is disappointing at best.
Margaret Thatcher said something like this – The problem with Socialism is that you soon run out of other people’s money.
Here is a link with expectations of what the Health Care program would really cost. (Not sure how to make it a link.)
http://townhall.com/news/politics-elections/2009/03/18/health_care_overhaul_cost_may_reach_$15_trillion?page=full&comments=true
March 18th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Well, say what you will, if you actually look up the beliefs of the US Socialist party, you will see that our President Barack Obama is not even close to being a socialist. It’s actually pretty funny that people label him such.
And as I said earlier, I’ve had enough fear tactics from the past presidency, I don’t need anyone trying to scare me into a stupor of allowing the same ol same to continue.
And I am relieved to know that our children in this country are now being covered, no matter their parent/guardian situations. To me, that’s just common decency.
March 18th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
I really could care less about the TALK aor the PLAN — I care more about “Can it be executed” – “How is it going to get paid” – “Are we borrowing against tomorrow to get someing done today” – I have heard a lot of smooth talk – I have seen a lot of GREAT IDEAS – but – I have yet to see how we are going to pay for all this without going trillions of dollars in debt as a nation (last figure is saw was 11 TRILLION). Common – who wouldn’t love to live in a country where everything was free – but let’s not bankrupt our grandchildren by our actions today. Anything the government is involved with ends up broke — just look at social security and they have been working on that for how many years? Both side of the isle need to quit the partisan bickering and come up with real solutions like cutting taxes so the American people can reinvest in the American economy – America will overcome IF the American people do not let its government destory it from within first!
March 18th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
Just a reminder, not to sound partisan, but when Clinton left office there were surpluses, etc, our economy was not badly beaten, our place in the world was more respected.
The national debt has spiraled out of control, and not because of needed healthcare reform, that’s for sure.
This current national deficit is not the result of a new ideas, but old ideas that didn’t work.
So, open your mind to some new ideas.
And as I said, Presodent Obama had a concrete plan you’re welcome to explore. And of course, you’re welcome to criticize. But I think it’s better to learn & understand the plan before you criticize it.
March 18th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Yes Richard! You are the man. Lets pay for the foolishness that has already taxed us to death before we shell out more of our kids future earnings. It is funny (not) that prices in health care continue to go up in this economy instead of the oposite. Why don’t medical people start charging much less for the goods and services? It seems so one sided and unfair. Aren’t the Doc’s rich enough already? Did you know that the health services industry is booming and it is currently the place to gain employment in times like this? And of course the prices continue to increase even though people are out of work and cannot pay. Lower the prices and costs – quit gouging America on health services!!
March 18th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Sue –
If it is so easy and profitable to be a doc – why aren’t YOU one?
March 18th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Emily – Answer the question — how is it going to be paid for except on the backs of us hard working Americans? You mame are extermely partisan — I simply read through the record of texts you have written ovet the last two days on this site alone and I see DNC blogger all over them. I have listened – I have researched – I have read – and NOWHERE does the math work out — Bottom line – if we get Obama’s version on UHC we are going to PAY OUT OF OUR POCKETS!
March 18th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Sue –
If it is so easy and profitable to be a doc – why aren’t YOU one?
I know why – you do not want to work for that.
March 18th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Main Entry: so·cial·ism
Pronunciation: \?s?-sh?-?li-z?m\
Function: noun
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done
We are not there yet, but nationalized health care is a big step in that direction.
March 18th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Ed:
If everyone was a doctor, we’d miss out of the fun of HR. Not everyone is cut out to be a doctor.
March 18th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Cindy –
My point is that docs work very hard to get where they are and they put in long hours – deal with the stress that if they error it could mean a life is lost. Very few people have that stress. Docs also work long hours.
Docs work very hard – what is that worth SUE?
March 18th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
I think that frivolous (sp??) law suites are the bigger problem.
March 18th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
See Cindy –
We agree again!!
Limit malpractice law suites to closer what SSD pays or or Life/AD&D insurances pay. Of course any time there if flagrant intention – higher payouts and lengthy jail time.
March 18th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
Hi Ed, If I was a doctor you could not afford my services. hahahahaha!!
March 18th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
I’ve arguments with my own family over the issue of law suites. People want to get something for nothing in a lot of cases.
March 18th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
Yes, Cindy, Ed, I agree with that. I work for a private practice, and trust me, our doctors work EXTREMELY HARD, STUDIED EXTREMELY HARD and are not reimbursed as they should be. As a result, they, the doctors themselves where I work, opted to take a 50% pay reduction two years ago for the sake of our practice so no one would lose their jobs. Malpractice claims and insurance rates are KILLER. People have a lot of misconceptions. Insurance companies are thieves.
And Richard, look it up for yourself, that’s my point – his plan is out there with an extraordinary amount of transparency. I never hid my support for Obama or to insure the uninsured, why should I? I do think for myself, however, and form my opinions from my life experience. I am free to do so as we all are.
Daniel, please, hardly not worth responding to. The Socialist party is so far from the Democratic party, trust me Obama is closer to being a Republican. Enough silliness. Helping fellow Americans out for the benefit of our nation as a whole is not anti-private ownership. No where at any point would Obama be against business, he wants to help small businesses. I mean, you’re comaprison is so off the mark, it’s too much to get into.
March 18th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
Sue,
Are you kidding that should doctors charge less because they are already rich enough? Do you have any idea what it takes to become a doctor? How about how much in debt these folks are coming out of school? How about the malpractice insurance that has caused how many specialists to go out of business (OB/GYNs for starters)? Frivilous lawsuits that cost in so many ways. Then they have to work the hours and hope for the best as they build a practice. They’ve earned the right to “be rich”. They made a different choice than you did. Sacrificed some things that I, for one, would not have been willing to do. Why be “jealous” of them (or anyone else who has put it all on the line/taken the risk and made $$) for their success if you didn’t make a similar choice? There are so many better things to change than mandating UHC.
By the way – you have a choice as to which doctor you see. Do you always choose the one that is “less expensive”?
March 18th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
Thanks, Linda. Working for doctors it truly is admirable how much time and care they truly put into their profession. Definitely must be a calling. We’re talking 12 years of difficult study for specialists.
Also, it doesn’t matter what doctors “charge” because that is NOT what they EVER get paid.
March 18th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Hi Linda, wow you are really in support of pricy doctors, like the one that put EIGHT empryos in a crazy women. Was he trying to Kill her? Doctors are people, not Gods. They need to lower their prices. It is not rocket science. Duh.
March 18th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
Sue: That guy is criminal, but he is not the norm.
March 18th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
But Sue –
You bleeding heart – You should be fighting for her choice as a woman to have how many ever embryos she wants implanted. It is her body – her choice – right?!
March 18th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
Sue – please don’t go that direction with me. I think that doctor should pay child support and be held responsible for what he unleashed. That is NOT what I’m referring to in any way shape or form, nor do I understand how your logic took you down that path. Are you saying that you would not seek out care from a good doctor because of price? Are you saying that you will go to a doctor who charges less even if they provide sub-standard care? Why are you removing all incentives for making yourself a success?
Emily, I guess I was looking at my question from a narrow viewpoint realizing after I said that that there are many docs who also donate their time to free clinics and do pro-bono work in other ways. My thought was that most individuals seek out quality care and typically those docs do charge more for a variety of reasons – specialist training, high COL area, etc.
March 18th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
My heart bleds for those children
March 18th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
Emily – Why do you dismiss anyone who disagrees with you or Mr Obama? IE Richard and Daniel today, Dan yesterday. I am sure that they speak from a wealth of life experience just as you wish to be taken seriously for your experience and research. Sounds like you are the one who is buying the “Obama Talk” hook line and sinker and you are the one who is showing your ignorance by not allowing for others to debate the issues. Just because someone talks a good game, and just because someone puts an idea out there that pleases you – don’t dismiss desenting opinions so easily. Please – do yourself a favor and quit drinking the kool-aid. As for the definition of Socialism — Daniel said “We are not there yet …” but I do agree – we are headed there fast.
March 18th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
Her Body, Her Choice? At who’s cost? Who gosh darn it , will be paying for that disaster?
March 18th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
If UHC passes who will pay for that –
Hey I got it – let’s adopt the Chinese approach – only one child per couple. That will keep costs under control.
OK seriously – many of us have to pay taxes towrds things that we do not support or believe in -
March 18th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
I wish we all could have a little check list of things to apply our taxes towards.
But guess it doesn’t work that way.
We are lucky enough to be in the USA and therefore enjoy freedom and the hope of a better future.
March 18th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
My mother is a Rheumatologist who sees patients that other doctors refuse to see and charges only a fraction of what she could charge. I’m very proud of her efforts, she is 75 and still running her own clinic and is constantly booked with appointments. She is one of the few that actually cares about the individual and she goes to great lengths to help these people. I’m an HR and Accounting professional and at 52 years I’ve still got it babe! Bring it on!!
March 18th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Cindy,
I have read the Obama/Biden healthcare plan (several times) and I agree that it is a wonderful vision and nothing would make me happier than to see President Obama pull it off. I just don’t understand how it can possibly work. First, he never defines affordable. I know many people who think that healthcare is a basic right and should be free. If it is free or “affordable”, the taxpayers will have to pay for the cost of care for the 40+ million uninsured (including 12 million illegals) and the millions of “underinsured”. Again, I’m not sure how “underinsured” is defined, but it will be a huge cost that will be taken from every taxpayer. BTW, health care is not a basic right. It is a service that is provided by someone and therefore uses that persons’s time and talent for which they should be fairly compensated. When this compensation is dictated , not by the free market, but by the government, the whole idea of a “fair market” is trashed.
Health insurance is not like car insurance, homeowners insurance or life insurance which insures against a catastrophic event, it is a benefit and, if it is “affordable”, people will want to use as much of it as possible. They want to make sure they get at least as much benefit as their cost. That is why expensive procedures (MRIs, CTs, surgeries) and non-generic drugs must be preapproved by the insurance carrier, including Medicaid and Medicare. In addition, the insurance carriers have reduced the amount they will pay for these procedures to levels that discourage physicians from doing these tests. The Obama/Biden plan will also ration care to people who sign up for the new government plan. The demand for healthcare is almost unlimited, but the supply is not. Therefore the government must devise a system that restricts access to healthcare.
The notion of making people accountable or responsible for their own health is laudable, but unrealistic. The government can provide all the education, healthcare homes, healthcare coaches, etc. (all of which will cost millions of dollars) and people will not improve their health status. Unless President Obama is willing to mandate a series of requirements including that unless every person get a flu shot every year, that women get age appropriate Paps and mammograms and every person be screened for colon cancer, that no one use tobacco, and that everyone meet appropriate wieght standards they lose their affordable heathcare, then all the talk of personal responsibility is wishful thinking. It’s been over 35 years since the surgeon general’s warning on cigarettes was announced and millions of people still smoke. I may be a little cynical, but in my experience, most people don’t want to be responsible because that takes an effort on their part. They just want a “magic pill” that will make them feel good.
March 18th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
Sue –
How much does she pay for malpractice insurance?
March 18th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
Hi Ed, I just gave her office a call but one of her nurses says she is with a patient. I will try to get back to you on that one. Good question.
March 18th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
A friend from London came for a visit a few months ago. He needed a root canal and had to wait six months for treatment. His cost was going to be over $4,000.00. He couldn’t believe the price here (without insurance) and how soon people here received treatment. That’s government run health care.
March 19th, 2009 at 6:31 am
Sam:
It appears to me that most of the posters here are closed minded and do not want to even entertain the fact that President Obama might make this work. So don’t go accusing Emily of “drinking the Kool-aide” and falling for the Obama talk. Look at how people followed Bush for so long. And we know how THAT turned out. THe worst president in history.
It sounds like Emily has researched to me. More than I have and sounds like more than most of you have. You all want to believe all the negative right wing talk without really looking at his plan. I just don’t think most of you WANT him to succeed. Then you’d all have to eat your words.
March 19th, 2009 at 7:48 am
Thanks, Cindy!
Sam – I wasn’t dismissing anyone for their disagreement, just asking them to base their disagreement on the facts and the actual plan, not assumptions or stories they heard about Canada, etc. That’s all. It’s better to disagree with the actual plan than with notions, that’s all. Please, look up what he wants to do and how he wants to pay for it, then make your arguments. And Socialism is anti private ownership of anything, a totally different and extreme idea than anything Obama, or any US President, would or could possibly stand for, an idea that was tried, which went against human nature, and therefore failed.
Ed – Here, in our small private practice in the suburbs of NY, with about a dozen doctors in a few offices, we pay $712,000.00 a year for malpractice insurance, which will inevitably go up July 1st.
And Cindy, you’re right – and really, we all should want him to succeed, because that means the success of our America.
March 19th, 2009 at 8:03 am
Contrary to what many liberals want to believe, conservatives want President Obama to succeed because that means America will succeed.
$712,000.00 per year in malpractice insurance. That is almost $2,000.00 per day!!!! Some one please try to tell me that this is not a big reason for high costs of medical services – go ahead try it. This means that with about a dozen doctors they each pay about $160.00 PER DAY towards the insurance alone.
We must limit medical malpractice lawsuites to much smaller dollar amounts.
March 19th, 2009 at 8:17 am
Ed, you’re last point, I agree completely. Doctors are human, and make mistakes, and preventable ones that lead to unneccesary health problems or death are a tragedy that people deserve to have reconciliation for. But many cases are unjustified, and the tendancy is to name every doctor whom a patient ever saw, regardless. This just winds up costing the courts, as well as the doctors who were not to blame. Also, we have noticed an incredible upsurge of cases since the economy began to tumble. It seems people are hoping for easy money. And what we have seen is an upsurge in the price of malpractie insurance at the same time a reduction in the amounts being reimbursed by insurance companies.
I don’t think everyone who questions Obama is a Rush Limbaugh. It’s of course American to question our leadership and make our voices heard. I just want people to do so about the actual plan and vision.
I didn’t agree with Bush, but I took the time to try to figure out his reasoning and always assumed it was because he thought it would make a better America. I don’t like when ANYONE, left or right, disagrees just to disagree, or takes cheap (inaccurate) shots at a man deemed capable of his office by the American people with labels like “socialist.” Or is Rush Limbaugh and openly wishes him failure!
March 19th, 2009 at 9:37 am
Tom, you have some good points. I understand it is not an easy course to figure, and I hope the right minds will come up with a plan that takes reality and merges it with vision to come up with the right formula for the US. It may not be perfect, but I have hope it will be a good venture for us as a nation.
March 20th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
Universal Healthcare is just another term for legalized euthanasia. How long do you have to wait for an appointment in Canada to find out your cancer might have been treatable if you could have seen a doctor when you called to make the appointment instead of when you finally made it through the waiting list.
Did you know that some managed care plans already turn down cancer treatment or knee or back surgery because of age? In other words, you’re going to die in a very few years anyway so you can just die now and save us a lot of money. Wait until its the government managing your care.
You get what you pay for folks
March 20th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
If UHC passes then watch the gov’t put salary caps on medical people; the good ones will leave town and we will end up with a bunch of hacks.
March 23rd, 2009 at 6:29 am
Sharon:
Took me 2 1/2 years here in the states to find out that I had cancer that went from stage 0 to stage 1. Hmmm…
March 23rd, 2009 at 8:06 am
Having a doctor misdiagnos is different than being on a waiting list or receiving sub-standard care through UHC. I am sorry that your doctor was incompetent. Hopefully you’ve found one that is much better.
March 23rd, 2009 at 8:08 am
Linda:
I’ve been on wait lists also. Three weeks to get a biopsy scheduled and then two more months until surgery.
March 23rd, 2009 at 8:13 am
first hand here – wait lists in the UK were far longer than 3 weeks or 2 months. My landlord waited over 7 months for a quadruple by-pass, was passing out and literally gray by the time his surgery was performed. I had several friends who had to wait until “gall-bladder surgery day” (when they did nothing but those surgeries) (and no private rooms – only wards of beds) for more than 5 or 6 months (one had to wait 9 months). Those who can pay for personal insurance so they can go to doctors that will see them more quickly and provide care not authorized by the government.
March 23rd, 2009 at 8:19 am
Linda:
What do you think people with no insurance have to go through…they may NEVER get care. President Obama doesn’t want to take away our company provided benefits. He just wants to help those who have NONE.
March 23rd, 2009 at 8:36 am
Cindy speaks the truth.
We are talking in circles, and again, we are NOT adopting the system of the UK (which, incidentally, I have used personally with no wait time & if it was so awful the people would rise up against it – they are a democracy, they do have voting power; on the whole the British people are thankful for their system.) So horror stories of UK or Canada are completely irrelevant.
Linda, please read Obama’s vision, it’s drastically different than what the UK has, as we are a drastically different country.
March 23rd, 2009 at 8:46 am
Emily, you were one of the lucky ones in the UK system. As I stated before, it is all but impossible to go backward to remove a social program already in place. Too much dependence. Try taking away medicare or social security or welfare or any major program already in place and see what happens. Would most of us overhaul or overthrow if we could – I’m guessing the answer is yes in many instances.
Please – I’m not just a headline reader. Give me credit for doing more than just disagreeing with someone because I don’t like the party to which they belong. It’s an insult those of us who actually do research and ask the right questions regardless of political bias. I would challenge this idea regardless of who brought it to the table.
I have read Mr. Obama’s vision. I’ve also lived through the Dirigo fiasco in Maine. I don’t agree with his plan nor do I understand how he plans to pay for this (taxing the “rich” is NOT the answer to everything). Government run programs are never the way to go. They are inefficient, add tons of red tape, and end up costing those of us who actually work. This is more than just a “helping hand” program; it is effectively an entitlement (aka handout).
March 23rd, 2009 at 8:56 am
Is there anything in the plan for those that get the free healthcare to contruibute anything – even if it is some personal time donated to helping others? Will they be required to assist society in any way shape or form?
March 23rd, 2009 at 9:10 am
“If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara, in five years, there would be a shortage of sand” –Milton Friedman (1976 winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics)
The federal government has limited power in the constitution for a reason. It is not best to allow the federal government to be this involved in the ordinary ways of living. Maybe this country does need improvements in health care but it should not be up to the federal government to provide them. Most of the problems we are seeing now are the result of the federal governments over-involvement in areas in which it should not be involved at all. The free market economy is typically the most prosperous for the most people; the last few administrations have moved farther and farther from that due to the popular demand for someone (the government, big business…etc) to take care of us so we don’t have to take care of ourselves. I believe there are 23(? not sure the exact number) writing proposals to declare state’s rights under the 10th amendment of the federal constitution which if any one passed would prevent a complete nationwide health care system anyway. I hope they all pass and other states follow suit. It might be the only way to end the socialist leaning madness that is driving the federal government today.
And yes, I believe that employers should get out of the health insurance business as well. Why should an employer provide health insurance? It changes the dynamic of the employer/employee relationship completely and puts unfair burdens on the employer.
It’s the “take care of me” attitude that drives the entire mess. If I can’t afford it, my employer owes it to me. If he won’t give it to me, I will sue him for it. If I don’t have an employer then the government owes it to me and if they won’t give it to me, I will vote in someone who will. What is missing here is the idea that if I don’t have something, I need to find a way to earn it.
March 23rd, 2009 at 9:21 am
Bravo – well said Linda and Lajeli! Cindy and Emily – we all know where you stand – give it a brake alreay and let us all get back to work!
March 23rd, 2009 at 9:24 am
We should ALL give it a break. We all know where everyone stands on this issue. So as not to single anyone out –
Let’s ALL give it a rest.
March 23rd, 2009 at 9:28 am
Sam: didn’t know you needed our permissin to work…thanks for the power.
March 23rd, 2009 at 9:29 am
Linda, I do give you credit, and some points are valid, but when there are posts about the UK it just seems off topic and distracting, and a scare tactic.
Ed, as someone who gave a year of voluntary service post college, I wish there were more people willing to help out others. But I think such an idea would be better suited to those who find themselves out of work right now, as many non insureds are working and paying taxes, they just don’t have a means to healthcare that is affordable through their employer. My friend went 5 years working f/t + overtime for an employer that didn’t offer a health insurance plan. Her field is v competitive and she couldn’t find anything else for a while. She was still paying her taxes and “contributing.” Also, voluntary work makes a person feel better about themselves. Chronically unemployed people tend to be depressed, feel useless. I volunteered a year in a neighborhood with a 75% unemployment rate, with third generation unemployment, I never saw such hopeless people. Obama is pushing people to serve, but it would be nice if there were incentives/ encouragements/ systems for people to who may have some extra time right now, and are being helped.
Lajeli, I’m just not scared of government involvement & don’t buy into the fear. I feel we do have a very competent federal government overall. Of course it’s not perfect, but it was created with checks & balances, and is probably the best model of government human kind has come up with so far. We are the UNITED States of America, and while local and state governments can respond to specific issues related to their populations, we must stay as one united country.
March 23rd, 2009 at 11:41 am
Emily,
Horror stories of the UK and Canada are completely relevant. Can’t you learn from whats gone wrong there?
Cindy,
You did get health care even without insurance didn’t you? You just weren’t happy with the quality of the care you received without insurance. The government already provides care for uninsured and underinsured people. Do you really wish to diminish everyone’s care to the level you received? Thats what we’re talking about here.
Think about it folks.
March 23rd, 2009 at 11:47 am
Sharon:
No, I did NOT get health care without health insurance. This may disqust you, but I had to apply for a state health insurance plan (because I had been laid off and couldn’t afford COBRA) so I could be treated. Sorry, but living to see my four year old grow up means more to me than my pride. This insurance mostly served it’s purpose except it wouldn’t pay for my cancer meds…..the drug company helped me with that one. I didn’t have a huge choice on what docs I could see but I did have care and I appreciated that care even though it was ran by the government…it worked for me at a time I needed it most.
March 23rd, 2009 at 11:55 am
Cindy,
A State insurance plan IS government health care. As I stated, you were unhappy with the quality of care the government provided. Again, is that the level of care you would wish on all of us?
March 23rd, 2009 at 11:57 am
sHARON:
No, I wasn’t unhappy with THAT care. When I was mis-diagnosed, I was still working and was covered under my employer’s plan. I was GRATEFUL that I could be covered under a government plan when I didn’t have any other resource available to me.
March 23rd, 2009 at 12:01 pm
Cindy,
So you’re ok with a limited number of doc’s and no coverage for meds? I don’t think most American’s would be happy with that
March 23rd, 2009 at 12:02 pm
Everyone should have access to quality medical care. Why should the government or the employer provide the means to that care? Third party interference (insurance carriers) falsely inflates the prices because they prevent most consumers from paying the full price charged. Lawsuits (and malpractice insurance carriers) also inflate the prices by increasing the costs of doing business. Medical personnel are trained human beings. No one has a “right’ to their services. They are no more or less equal than any patient. They have the right to charge for their services. If we want their services, we have to pay for them. If we want to pay less for their services, we have to help lower their costs. Universal Health care will ultimately raise their costs and falsely inflate their prices by preventing the consumer from paying the full portion of the price. Everyone wants an answer that works but we have to fight it at the cause of the problem and not get so desperate that we think the right answer is Universal Health Care which will only make things worse.
March 23rd, 2009 at 12:04 pm
To Sharon:
As an alternative to NO health insurance…yes, I was and would be fine with it. If I keep my job, I will be able to keep my policy under my employer’s plan which gives me a better choice of docs and pays for my meds.
March 23rd, 2009 at 12:04 pm
Sharon – if the UK/Canadian models were being proposed it would be relevant. And can’t you learn what went right from other places?
There are many who are working/paying taxes who do not have health insurance but do not qualify for state plans. Whether you believe it or not, it is a real problem for a lot of hard working people. There are many who fall through the cracks, who don’t qualify for Medicaid, etc but also do not have enough to purchase their own. And don’t forget insurance companies reject applicants as well, for pre-existing conditions, etc. So it’s not a guarantee for Americans to get covered.
March 23rd, 2009 at 12:06 pm
To Lajeli:
Get real! There is not way I could have afforded to pay for cancer treatment out of my own pocket. I would of had to do without and be dead right now.
March 23rd, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Instead of arguing for health insurance coverage, we should be arguing for affordable health care. they are not the same thing.
March 23rd, 2009 at 12:10 pm
Lejeli:
and how do you propose that? Doctors willingly taking a cut? sure
March 23rd, 2009 at 12:10 pm
Cindy,
No, you would have that level of health care INSTEAD. This replaces our private health care system
March 23rd, 2009 at 12:14 pm
My guess is that you’d have a poor level of care or still not have care because you couldn’t even afford the basic plan….a lot of people would chose to feed their families over paying for health care and believe me, that is the choice sometimes. You just need to take off the rose colored glasses.
March 23rd, 2009 at 12:17 pm
I am extremely “real”. I am not the one asking the US Federal Government to make guarantees on behalf of myself or my family. Doctors do not need to take cuts in order for the health care system to regulate itself. It’s a business like any other. There is no food insurance yet without food, people will die. Food prices may fluctuate and some things in the grocery store may be too expensive for me but my family eats. That system works because there is no third party ‘hero’ that I depend on to solve all my problems. If food were not affordable, food companies would go out of business. It’s that simple. If a third party insurer entered the picture, milk could go up to $12.00 per gallon and with insurance the copay would only be $4.00 which to those of us with insurance would be fine but would end up killing those who were not insured. Imagine what would happen if we started suing the milk producers for malpractice and they had to buy insurance. This cannot be solved from only the viewpoint of the consumer which, Cindy, is unfortunately the only viewpoint you bring to the table. Your sitauion is tragic and I can understand the fear it causes but it would be a good idea for you to understand that the fear is what is keeping you from getting “real”
March 23rd, 2009 at 12:21 pm
So you think it can be turned around just by telling the doctors to lower their fees?
March 23rd, 2009 at 12:24 pm
No, that would be just as bad as handing out free insurance to people at the taxpayer’s expense.
March 23rd, 2009 at 12:26 pm
To Lajeli:
Then I have no clue what you are trying to propose. I guess you’d be a good politician?
March 23rd, 2009 at 12:28 pm
The way to make health care affordable without asking docs to take pay cuts is to eliminate the ambulance chasing incentives and limit malpractice claims and awards. Obviously there are some legitimate cases but the vast majority should never get as far as they do nor should the awards be so devestating. When specialists have had to close shop due to how much their legal insurance is, there is a huge problem. And there should be accountability for unhealthy choices – smoking, for example. And while some obesity issues are genetic, most are not and are instead due to fast food, overeating, sedentary lifestyles, etc.
March 23rd, 2009 at 12:30 pm
Cindy – I think what she is saying is that you find another doctor or clinic that charges a bit less.
If I go to a local grocery store (Pick-n-Save) they charge about $3.75 for Oreo cookies – I can go across the street to Wal-Mart and get the exact same item for $3.25 or sometimes even less. It is a bit tougher when it comes to healthcare to do that – but it can be done.
Personally I spoke with my child’s ped. he was only in the room for 2-3 minutes but the charge was $180.00 – I asked that it be reduced to more closely match the actual services that we received from him. They reduced it a bit – (not enough but some). Carefully look over your bills – ask for itemized statements.
My sister-in-law was charged $14.00 for one phlem containment unit – a box of freakin Klenex!!! Trust me that came off the bill that the insurance got. There is plenty that we need to do as consumers that will reduce costs.
We still need something to help families out – I just do not know what that is yet.
March 23rd, 2009 at 12:31 pm
TO LINDA:
this was one of the things that our FORMER president was suppose to take care of (and of course didn’t). I remember it because it was about the only thing I agreed with him on.
March 23rd, 2009 at 12:35 pm
I can probably venture a guess that I couldn’t have afforded my cancer treatment even if one hospital would have knocked off a few bucks. A office visit is one thing…testing and treatment is another.
March 23rd, 2009 at 12:35 pm
I am proposing a market driven pricing system without government involvement and less interference from third party insurance carriers. It is a very simple system that works quite well for people who are hard working and personally responsible. It is not very suitable however for those who want something for nothing or those who belive that anyone owes them something just because they happen to need it. Unfortunately, I do not think there is a feasible system for those who think something is owed because they need it. That is just a fairy tale. The free market system does allow for charities to come in and privately assist those who do not fare as well as others. Since it is based on the love of others and not the extortion of others, you will find that the gifts are freely given and received with no false sense of entitlement but rather a sense of gratitude and caring. I am truly sorry that the events in your life have been so difficult and I hate to be harsh but as a taxpayer, I do not believe it is your right to demand that I pay for your health care no matter how sick you or your children may get. It is not my burden and I have a right to say “No, I will not pay more so someone else can have health insurance coverage.” I want to keep that right even if I willingly give gobs of money to charities to help provide health care for those who need it. It’s my money and that makes it my choice even if that makes me selfish or mean.
March 23rd, 2009 at 12:38 pm
LOL – do some history research on Mr. John Edwards. He made his millions as an attorney attacking docs on malpractice (and then it turned out he was wrong – but he also didn’t return any of the money he took as he bankrupted the doctors). You must realize that a president (of either party) cannot do everything by himself. If the “checks and balances” (of either party) don’t agree with him, it doesn’t get passed. Sometimes it’s political manuevering, sometimes it’s self-preservation. How many of our congressmen and women are attorneys and are willing to take the lucrative business away from themselves and their friends? I would love to see this type of thing restricted or eliminated but unfortunately our elected officials are not always on the same page as their constituents. And how many of us actually take the time to write their reps? We’re all to blame for allowing it to get this way.
March 23rd, 2009 at 12:46 pm
tO lajeli:
we’ll that’s where we differ. I think we ARE responsible for our fellow country men. We expect them to go fight for us but to hell with their family back home if they find themselves without insurance through no fault of their own. What a hypocrit!!
March 23rd, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Cindy – HUH???? When did anyone propose that we not cover our servicemen/women and their families?
March 23rd, 2009 at 12:55 pm
She is talking about Reservists and Guardsmen that get called to active duty for a year or longer. They have to leave their jobs – must go on COBRA or continue to pay (if the company is decent enough) their portion of the employer sponsored insuarnce. The problem is that most military positions pay very, very little and that drops the affordability for the family – especially when the spouse is no longer able to work as much because the deployed family member cannot help with childcare.
March 23rd, 2009 at 1:05 pm
In what way is that hypocritical? The healthcare of those in the military isn’t that great (and yes, I have actually been on military health care plans) because it is exactly the type of health care system you suggest. When my husband joined the military, we had to sign a waiver stating that we understood that with two children, we would be facing many financial hardships and that we agreed to live on less without formal complaint. It is not the healthcare issue that causes the disrespect for the military. That belongs to the people who think that the military is unecessary and immoral. I feel for the people who have a difficult time with health care but again, it is not my financial burden to fix. When reservists who have to pay high COBRA costs, remember that is a premium to the insurance carrier and not one of the natural costs of doing business in the health care industry. I am afraid that your eaxample may argue against Universal Health Care instead of for it.
Forcing Americans to work hard to support others is not the way to go. Please review history and economics! The Plymouth colony was founded on the principle of those that did not work, did not eat. I believe the healthy people who did not work that day were sent to wait outside the camp until meals were finished. I promise you that if you go back and study the basics of economics, you will see how bad a plan this is. You have to let go of the viewpoint of the consumer and see it from all sides before you will understand. Price regulates demand so that it will match supply. If you decrease (or eliminate) the price with no connection to the supply, you create an imbalance and in Universal Health Care, this is where you have horror stories like people waiting 6 months for a mamomgram while the wait for breast implants is only 3 weeks. Keeping the price for some things higher keeps frivilous visits to a minimum, thus freeing up the physician to see those who really need to see him. Trusting the docotr to select your medication instead of letting the insurance company tell you which medicene to use based on price also raises the costs of medical costs. You try the cheaper one, it doesn’t work, you go back and get a new precription or get new meds to offset the side effects fo the first one…etc.
March 23rd, 2009 at 1:11 pm
Ed/Cindy
Gotcha. The military (no matter what the status) is one group of individuals I would go to bat for to get government subsidized coverage (and at a much better level than what our regular military receives). But I would not lump every other American into that category.
An example of why I have concerns about all of this entitlement stuff. In another life I taught school in a rural area. Some of my students didn’t even have running water in their homes so had to come to school to take showers. I tried very hard with a number of the parents to do what they could to keep their kids in school even offering my services as a tutor for free. The response in almost all instances was along the lines of “I never graduated and it didn’t hurt me, none. I get food stamps and lots of free stuff.” And they worked under the table so as not to have their income count agains their entitlements! That’s what we’ve taught several generations to do.
I’ve also seen too many kids end up as wards of the court (one of my non-profit HR stints) due to abuse and then needing medical treatment. All at an enormous cost to the taxpayer. And the parents? No jail time and they are able to procreate and add even more kids to this system. And those kids tend to be dysfunctional adults that require government subsidies.
Again – helping hand is ok. Handouts are bad. Take away the incentives to actually go out and earn these privileges and all you end up with are more taxing the system.
March 23rd, 2009 at 1:20 pm
When we don’t care about Americans we don’t care about America.
I would hope we have come a long way since Plymouth. And what about those who were unable to work that day? Were they all left outside to starve? Human beings are individuals, each with unique stories and backgrounds and situations. This is not a back & white issue. Progress is a good and natural thing that comes about when the current isn’t working. Necessity breeds change and progress. Fear tries to stop it. The Plymouth model didn’t continue because it didn’t work. Our system now has too many shortfalls to continue.
Of all the things your taxes go to, this would be your big objection? Really?? I would take back my tax money that increased profits for Halliburton, or an AIG bonus recipient to help pay someone who was stuck in the situation Cindy was in. But as I said earlier, I guess we don’t get to choose where our taxes go outside who we elect into local & federal office.
March 23rd, 2009 at 1:22 pm
I know some truly wonderful people who do missionary work in Haiti. I have heard stories about how US doctors are at such a loss when volunteering there because here they have access to so much equipment and medication that it is difficult for them to do the job with nothing. When I say nothing, I mean that one doctor had to open a young girl’s skull with a maunally operated can opener to remove a bullet. This missionary group will take all the help it can get with exceptions…for example, they do not want clothing of any kind. The people in their town make clothing for themselves and to sell to others to generate income. Having an industry gives them a sense of purpose. I can’t imagine what it would be like to live that way; I am far too spoiled by American ways. I do understand that the only thing worse than living in that level of poverty or violence is to do so without the hope that I may someday overcome it. Their government has created their situation and they cannot depend on it for things like food and health care. I hope that we, in the US, never get that dependent on our government especially for things like food or health care.
March 23rd, 2009 at 1:27 pm
I hope we never get too far from Plymouth and the founding ideas of our nation. The reasons that people came here to build a new life are the reasons that we are independent and strong and wealthy. There are many countries that are not. There are many countries that offer government health care and all kinds of free handouts. There is only one America, where anyone can be anything and no one is meant to depend on anyone else. there is only one place in the workd that offers this kind of freedom–why eliminate that to create one more place like all the others? Why take away the one country that does it this way? If by free you mean free gifts from the goverment, you can get that in a lot of places. I can only get the freedom I want (the freedom to fail or succeed on my own merit with no interference) in one place. There are a lot of people who want to keep that.
March 23rd, 2009 at 1:31 pm
And I never said I didn’t care about other Americans. I said I should not be forced by the government to provide for them.
March 23rd, 2009 at 1:36 pm
Best country in the world, no doubt. But there’s reason why schemes of 300 years ago didn’t continue. Progress.
I love this country enough to pay my taxes without complaint about such. That’s my role and duty as an American. I get up every day, go to work, pay my taxes, give extra to charity, and live a good life as a happy citizen.
And although this is the best country in the world, it doesn’t mean that it is perfect. We should not be so ignorant as to reject any ideas from other places and modify them to meet our country’s unique needs. The USA does not have all the answers, and we are in a global economy and society whether we like it or not. And whether we like it or not, our current healthcare situation is falling short.
March 23rd, 2009 at 1:43 pm
I would never willingly give my money to the US government in the form of taxes to help someone in Cindy’s situation. That is not what taxes are for. I would not hesitate to help someone in Cindy’s situation either directly (if I knew her) or through a reputable charitable organization. I willingly give taxes to the US federal government to pay for what they are constitutionally bound to provide and I will oppose giving my money in the form of taxes to fund anything else. The federal government has limited power and virtually no responsibilty to make up for what Americans cannot provide to themselves. Why do we keep trying to make the government somethign that it is not? It is not a provider–period. It is a product of those who provide. It is a necessary means to an end; the end being freedom from government dependence and its subsequent control.
People in Plymouth who did not work received nothing and all the benefits of work went to those who actually worked. They were free to share it if they wanted but it was their choice. I imagine that those who didn’t like it quickly found a way to work. The alternative plan was for all to die because those who worked needed the strength and therefore needed the food. The “work” I refer to here was protecting the colony, building shelter and the creation of food…hmmm. I don’t think that taking away from that group would have been the better plan.
March 23rd, 2009 at 1:52 pm
I asked what about the people who could NOT work? i.e. were too old, sick, lame. Wow, Plymouth sounds like more like Auchwitz in your telling. Glad we have moved on and that when we actually became a country 100 or so years later of progress our founding fathers had more sense than that.
March 23rd, 2009 at 1:55 pm
By the way, the AIG bonuses were paid out to those executives because this administration forced them to pay them. Christopher Dodd was the one that wrote the clause that said any contracts signed before Feb 2009 must be honored and it included those bonus contracts. it is no different than contracts made with unions to pay out benefits to retired auto workers when the auto companies are on the verge of bankruptcy. It is more of the same dependency and entitlement that is devastating this country. If it weren’t for all this “the government must protect everyone from everything” thining, these companies would not be receiving bailout money and most would likely not even need it.
March 23rd, 2009 at 1:56 pm
The government deregulating the economy was the reason for this financial crisis, don’t forget.
March 23rd, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Sub prime mortagages and ARM’s –
People wanting more than they could afford. Then not paying the banks what they owed.
March 23rd, 2009 at 2:01 pm
You guys are really scary…Auchwitz was run by a progressive, socialist group and Plymouth was run by a free market, capital group. Which one succeeded? Which one provided hundreds of years of prosperity? Which one actively murdered the sick, the old and the weak? Which one promoted euthanasia? Which one promoted the ‘mercy killings’ of the handicapped? Which one rallied around the idea of religious intolerance? Which one wanted the government to provide all things to all people? You are so far off the mark on that one, it is a literal shame on the educational system of this country. Keep fighting the good fight for the governemnt to take care of all of us and you might just get to really learn what Auchwitz was like.
March 23rd, 2009 at 2:05 pm
I was not being literal. Your reference to Plymouth was that those who did not work should not eat, and somehow think that applies to 2009? Bit harsh, don’t you think?
March 23rd, 2009 at 2:08 pm
Lajeli – again an excellent point – there is NO WHERE in our nations Bill of Rights ot Constitution that expressed that Health Care is a right of the American People. This is a notion that was started in World War II and unfortunately has been allowed to spiral out of control until we are to the point we are at today. To Emily’s question … YES .. they would die. I would venture to say there a folks all over the world who are in that same situation today … they get sick … they die. What right do we have in America to demand that we be treated any differently? Progress is not always good if it causes you to move past what made our counrty GREAT in the first place!
March 23rd, 2009 at 2:09 pm
The government did not deregulate the economy. The government partially deregulated parts of some industries–big difference. This economic crisis was caused by many things:
the government forced lenders to stop discriminating and provide mortgages to those who could not afford them in an attemp to be fair; the government has a corporate taxe rate of 35% (which is higher than most socialist nations); the government pays out billions of dollars annually to people who find that welfare is a better provider than employment; the government raised the minimum wage which increases the costs of doing business which business off-set by firing the least skilled of their employees which raises the unemployment level; the government passes ridiculous labor laws that practically force companies to move their operations to overseas locations that do not pass such laws; the government (EPA) places unfair demands on US facilites in certain industries which makes the US dependent on foreign suppliers for things like oil and gas…I could go on but I think you get the point. Business creates wealth and jobs; the government creates taxes. It is in our best intrests for business to succeed
March 23rd, 2009 at 2:12 pm
Ok I didn’t have enough time to read everyone’s posts but here is my humble opinion. I am a Canadian citizen living in the US as a permanent resident. Before anyone jumps down my throat, I pay my taxes and contribute to the US economy and treat it like my own as it is this country that helps me pay my bills. I grew up in Canada with universal health care and have to say it leaves a lot to be desired. The system is overloaded because there are not still not enough resources to serve the population. People are on extensive waiting lists for testing and procedures to the point that people are literally dying on the waiting list. My parents(both in their mid to late 50s) have said several times that if they ever get sick they will be here in the states in a heart beat because at least here they will be able to see a specialist. Many northern towns and cities in Canada do not have enough doctors so people have to go to the ER for a simple prescriptions because they are unable to get into a GP. Hospitals have no beds available and so very ill people who need to be hospitalized aren’t because there are no beds. I agree that there has to be a better situation than there is now, but full universal healthcare isn’t the solution. My dad is a business owner and is constantly telling me how much he has to pay in taxes and it is true, taxes are much higher there. He works 16-20 hours days on a regular basis to keep his company running so he deserves all the luxuries he has, including the ability to purchase better health care options, so I don’t want to hear anyone bashing him (or me) for that though. I am probably rambling but this issue irritates me very much when people who have never experienced something think they know all the facts. I am not saying I am an expert, just sharing my experiences. As the old saying goes “The grass is always greener on the other side”, until you get there (again my humble opinion. There has to be a place in between what we have now and full universal health care that would be a much better solution.
March 23rd, 2009 at 2:15 pm
Wow, Sam, you are sick.
Sorry, I guess I was raised to care about other people, and I thank God I do not live in a country that would allow others to die because they are too old, sick or lame to work. We have the means to ensure no one in our great nation starves or dies unneccesarily. As I said, if you don’t care about Americans, to me, you don’t care about America.
And the theme of the current economic crisis is unchecked greed is not good for our country. I am NOT a socialist, I believe in business as a force of goodness & progress. But the government has adopted additional roles as society has needed it to. And it was built in order to be able to do so.
March 23rd, 2009 at 2:18 pm
I do not think it is harsh at all…wanna know why?
I would work my butt off to ensure I ate well. I would take good care of those around me in the spirit of fellowship and when a hard-working collegue of mine was hungry, I would help him (without the governemnt forcing me to) and then hope the favor was returned if I needed it. I would earn more than I needed in the short term and save like crazy for the proverbial rainy day. I would earn the respect of my fellow man and my God by helping those who were unable to provide for themselves and I would raise my children to be just like me. I would do it without the governement making me do it. Wanna know why I would do these things? They are the right things to do. I know this because I had fantastic parents who raised me with a strong work ethic, a sense of shame for taking something I didn’t earn and all kinds of what our public schools call superstious hype but my folks just called it religion. I know I could do it because I am doing it right now and I am proud as hell of that. I know people who haven’t worked a day in years and drive nicer cars and get more tv channels. Yeah they are techincally disabled and I feel badly for their suffereing. One poor guy can’t spend more than 12 hours at a time hunting (with guns purchased from a disability check) and has a heck of a time being the chief of the volunteer firefighting group in his area.
March 23rd, 2009 at 2:19 pm
Emily you really lost me that time:
“We have the means to ensure no one in our great nation starves or dies unneccesarily.”
Please define a ‘necessary’ death
March 23rd, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Emily, here is the Socialists Party of America’s own definition of itself:
“THE SOCIALIST PARTY strives to establish a radical democracy that places people’s lives under their own control – a non-racist, classless, feminist socialist society… where working people own and control the means of production and distribution through democratically-controlled public agencies; where full employment is realized for everyone who wants to work; where workers have the right to form unions freely, and to strike and engage in other forms of job actions; and where the production of society is used for the benefit of all humanity, not for the private profit of a few. We believe socialism and democracy are one and indivisible. The working class is in a key and central position to fight back against the ruling capitalist class and its power. The working class is the major force worldwide that can lead the way to a socialist future – to a real radical democracy from below. The Socialist Party fights for progressive changes compatible with a socialist future. We support militant working class struggles and electoral action, independent of the capitalist controlled two-party system, to present socialist alternatives. We strive for democratic revolutions – radical and fundamental changes in the structure and quality of economic, political, and personal relations – to abolish the power now exercised by the few who control great wealth and the government. The Socialist Party is a democratic, multi-tendency organization, with structure and practices visible and accessible to all members.”
March 23rd, 2009 at 2:23 pm
Emily,
How about a care-taking situation like the Waltons portrayed. When did we move away from taking care of our own families? When did we turn that responsibility over to the government (hmmm, New Deal, Great Society, Welfare – all of those types of programs increase our taxes and dissolve family even more)? And when did we start playing God by making over-the-top lifesaving measure decisions regardless of quality of life afterward? Who decides what kind of care? At what cost? Why is retirement age still 65 when the average life span has increased (because of the quality of care Americans receive, by the way)? Sigh. We cannot just turn over everything to the government.
March 23rd, 2009 at 2:25 pm
We are the richest country in the world and you and Sam think that if you can’t work you should starve & die? Even if you are too sick, lame, old to work? Or not be allowed to go to a doctor? Because in less fortunate third world countries the people suffer like that? Or be at the mercy of others for their pity? Sorry, totally sick scenario. I was raised with a strong work ethic AND strong morals as well. Glad I was.
I’ve had enough of this debate. Too many incredibly selfish and shortsighted people for me, sorry.
March 23rd, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Sam you are sick only because today’s society wants being realistic, honest and self-reliant to be a type of mental illness. I hear they have a new kool-aid flavored cure for that. I think you can find it under the Progressive label. This particular rememdy is called something like “share the wealth” grape if I remember right
March 23rd, 2009 at 2:31 pm
Emily…exactly why I quit posting.
March 23rd, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Emily – I fought in Desert Storm I – served eight years in the US ARMY Infantry and I think I have proven by placing my life on the line that I LOVE MY COUNTRY! Be very careful on the personal attacks and stick to the issue at hand — YES — there should be assistance for those who truly need it but that could be handled by charities … not by the government. If we simply kept all the money in this country that we ship out to “HELP” other countries maybe we could fund some of these programs — but — do I belive we need to help ANYONE who is not willing to help themselves … NO!
March 23rd, 2009 at 2:35 pm
One last thing —
Cindy, I hope you will stay healthy. Thank you for being brave enough to fight for your life, even when you were down on your luck. And also for being brave enough to share your story, especially among some who do not have the capacity for empathy.
Best of luck to you.
March 23rd, 2009 at 2:36 pm
I think it is selfish and short sighted to only see one side of an issue and fight for it with no clue what it will do to the other side…
I too am out; someone else can beat their head against this brick wall. Since I argue facts as opposed to emotion, anything I would have added from here on out could be learned from a text book anyway.
Y’all have a great and free day
March 23rd, 2009 at 2:39 pm
My gosh, don’t you people have work to do?
June 15th, 2009 at 11:42 am
I live in Canada – no issues for me with health care here – no real wait period – 2 weeks to see my Dr. for a bad knee, I was mobile – 2 more weeks for an MRI and 2 weeks for surgery. I realize this is anecdotal but seems to be no issue to toerhs I speak to. The emperical data is there for you to look at and the health outcomes in Canada are much better than the US. Our health tax is 1.95% of payroll. That being said – I feel you need a blend of private and public. We do need some more private care in this country to allow those with bucks to go to the front of the line.